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[kalaratiri]

Hello folks.

A friend of mine is doing research on women and sexism within gaming as part of her English course, and I offered to help her collect some opinions. So, if you could all be extremely kind and answer the questions below in as much detail as you can, both she and I would be very grateful

She is working around the question, "How is sexism exemplified through language use within the online gaming community?"

The questions:

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

4. Do you feel there is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?


As her question is based around the use of language centered around women in gaming, your answers are far more important that the questions themselves. Feel free to go off on tangents and explore ideas, but attempt to stick at least generally to the topic.

Thank you very much


(I'm not totally sure this is in the right sub-forum, mods please move it if it's not)

[Vic Van Meter]

Uh, in order, I guess...

1.  I married one.

2.  No, I just hope they can get out of the fire, like everyone else should be able to in LFR.

3.  Not that I know of.

4.  The funniest thing in the world is when a woman shows up somewhere in a mostly-male raid and getting to see the more desperate, single men competing in an asshattery contest to impress her.  I don't know if there's an alliance or rivalry anywhere else, but single computer nerds will fight over women in games like their lives depended on it, regardless of their respective chances to actually fly halfway across the country to meet said woman.  Truly the spectacle we're all playing MMOs to witness.

5.  Honestly, if you can hold your numbers and not die, no one really cares what gender you are in any of the games I play, and I play some with a lot more testosterone floating around in them than EVE.

I think if you're looking for derogatory wording, I rarely hear guys insulted for their poor DPS or healing by being called girls.  If you want to see some casual derogatory behavior, gamers are often a bit more homophobic than sexist.  I'm sure gay male gamers could tell you all kinds of stories about what a mixed bag gamer culture is for them.

Not as much women, though.  Besides the occasional elephant seal impressions some guys will put on when a woman shows up, nobody really cares what gender you are.  DPS numbers don't have penises or vaginas.

[orange]

1. They are gamers, which as a group can be competitive, focused, and energetic.  They are girls (vs boys): such gender differences mean even less in the digital world than in the physical.

2. No.

3. I think there is a subset of girl-gamers which seek to highlight themselves as "special."  I think this has a negative effect as it only contributes to unicorn perception and digital bravado of a particular set of male gamers.  However, on the whole, I think most of them want to just be gamers (like the rest of us).

4. For the most part I think not.  I think in some boys there can arise the desire to prove they are better than "the girl."

5. I have not experienced sexism.  I have seen/heard content/players that I think is sexist or based in misogynistic culture most certainly.  Which is really what it comes down to.   I was discussing the topic with my wife concerning the English language and what to me appeared to be a dearth of words equating a heterosexual male (of any species) with lesser or negative.  By contrast, the number of negative words with negative connotations connected to a female (of any species) are more readily apparent.  A "clean" example would be the difference between witch and warlock/wizard.  Witch can easily be used in derogatory manner (being nearly synonymous with bitch).  By contrast, to describe someone as a wizard is most likely a positive description (meaning being very good at an often technical task).  So, I think the gaming community's sexism challenges are a reflection of society's own challenges with it to include the very language we use.

[Vikarion]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

Not sure I have one. I have opinions on individual gamers, male and female, but I haven't noticed that the female gamers I've known were particularly more or less competent than their male counterparts. In general, I think that I largely rate my appreciation of other players by their competence at the game, save for one female gamer (Ciarente), who was the only gamer I've known who consistently produced a large volume of fiction I enjoyed reading. Most others I knew, male and female, produced less.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

Not unless they expect me to treat them differently. When playing Eve, my behavior towards female gamers was not significantly different from the way I treated the male ones - I liked working with Stitcher, Dex, Killjoy Tseng, Susan Black, and Ciarente, who were male, male, male, female, and female, but who I enjoyed playing with. On the other hand, I spent a reasonable time trying to kill (in-game) people like Hitome Kei, Esna Pitojee, and Aldrith Shutaq, who, to the best of my knowledge, were female, male, and male. Their RL gender mattered far less to me than the possibility of blowing up their spaceships and selling their frozen corpses.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

I've rarely noticed that they have. Almost never, in fact. One or two of the very competent girl gamers I've known became sort of a "queen bee" in their organization, around which most of the guys orbited, but that was due, I think, to their competence and personality, since I knew several guys who held nearly identical positions within purely male-composed organizations.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

In the gaming community as a whole? I haven't seen it. I think most people who play games just want to do that. But there is a significant minority of jerks who seem to think that attacking female gamers is the thing to do, which puzzles me. I also think that there is the occasional girl who wants to use her rarity in a certain community as a means to advantage within that community. But I don't see a truly systemic rivalry, no.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

I think it's quite obviously an issue, although not quite a clear-cut one. I've heard people say that Dragon Age is very non-sexist, while I found that there were things in it that made me roll my eyes. On the other hand, I've seen people making allegations of sexism in games that I couldn't quite follow.

As for the players, sure. I've seen sexists in games. They were rarely the most pleasant people to be around, and there is always the possibility that I'm blind to sexism in myself. I was in one group where a female gamer led the way in calling other players d---s, c---s, and a variety of other gender-related insults that nonetheless had more to do with a desire for insult variety than sexism. I was also in another group where the lone girl asked everyone to refrain from such language, which was generally observed without much griping. In neither group did there seem to be much concern over the gender of the players in our group.

That said, I can sometimes be oblivious to such things, and also in that vein, it is true that I don't believe I've experienced sexism personally while gaming. In real life? Absolutely. In games? No.

[Elmund Egivand]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

They are gamers too, aren't they? Their gender is irrelevant when they are firing Scorch at me.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

No.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

Nope. I find that gamer girls get along with male gamers just fine far as I had experienced it. Hell, I actually thought they got along with the guys better than they would in real life! They are usually alot less chatty however, probably to avoid being ratted out as being gamer girls and the associated asshat-ery. However, I also know gamer girls who are chatty enough to lead fleets or guilds or raids and nobody has anything to comment about it.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

Speaking for the part of the community I am in, no, there aren't any. They are so much one of us that there is hardly a gender-specific rivalry or alliance. Whatever rivalry or alliance are within guild/corp/faction lines, rather than gender lines.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

I don't feel that it's an issue. So long as we are all having fun working with or killing one another, we are good.

[Jace]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?
I tend to get along with them better than male gamers, but I don't really think that has much to do with gaming itself - I get along with women better IRL as well.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?
I feel safer interacting with them, especially with mediums like TS. I feel like I am much less likely to be harassed. Experience has backed up that feeling time and time again.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?
Not that I've noticed.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?
I don't think either of those words would describe the dynamics accurately.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?
It is absolutely an issue. Rampant, pervasive, insidious, and virtually everywhere. I haven't experienced it obviously, since I'm male. But I see it on a weekly basis at the minimum.

[Drakolus]

The questions:

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

     I think we need more of them?  I'm not sure but this question seems odd.  I guess I need more context in order to put more of an "opinion" on them.  I tend to evaluate actions and behaviors rather than just pure Gender.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

     Yes.  I know it's been mentioned before but Guys tend to act very differently the minute a female voice shows up.  I am just as guilty of it as well as I tend to lump many of the female gamers into a few groups.  The "try hards" who tend to try and outdo the guys in everything, be it dirty jokes, skill or what not.  The "attention whores" who really don't need much more explanation and the "cool chicks" who for the most part, just get on with gaming and don't let their Gender or peoples reaction to it define their gaming experience.


3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

     If they are, they have not invited me to any of their meetings so I really don't know.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

     I think there can be some rivalry.  Especially with the try-hards and even some times the cool chicks.  The latter can be a healthy rivalry and it's quite funny to hear some Woman going "you just got owned by a GIRL!" or something like that.  With the former it tends to be a bit more on the unhealthy side.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

     Massively.  Women get treated all sorts of badly and so do Men.  As a guy in an MMO, I am just a number.  Another random guy, doing his thing.  I tend to feel overlooked most of the time.  I imagine with most Women, it's probably the exact opposite.  I can only guess at the amount of attention, wanted and unwanted that they get and have to deal with the minute their Gender becomes known.


Hopefully I did this right-ish

[Nissui]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

Gamers is gamers. The girl part is superfluous.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

Gender is for meatspace. My opinion of a teammate or opponent is based on the match.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

Hm, not really a clique, maybe a class. Due to gaming's demographics (chiefly young doods), females seem to have certain qualities foisted on them. I wouldn't say I know of evidence that they operate in cliquish fashion, but I think many of them deal with the same sort of issues.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

No, but again, due to the demographics, I think females end up taking a lot of guff, especially when young doods are threatened by being outperformed. I don't really see that behavior coming from a place of healthy rivalry.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

I think it is, but I'm basically harping on the young doods at this point. I've never experienced it, though I did have one young girl who was in my Aion legion spend a few months sending me daily mails of lewd and suggestive language, which is not a comfortable situation to be in.

If this is too sparse, I can clarify. Cheers.

[Desiderya]

You will get massively skewed answers in a public setting. There's a reason this is done anonymously. Unless the goal is to collect a basis from which to design the questions for a proper survey I see no real benefit in answering these bullet points, as it is very unlikely that someone will come out of the closet in this (moderated!) forum with chauvinistic opinions they might harbor that will go against the already skewed mainstream of opinions here.

But to give you an opinion on the topic: Sexism in gaming. I tend to treat everyone as "generic gamer", which likely means "generic male", because doing the 'find out game' is so bloody retarded, and I'm here to play a game, and not to find a partner. As such I'm not going to give Lady Gamer more extra credit than Mister Gamer, because if people deserve that it's through the merit of their character or their actions, not what they have or don't have in the pants department. If you're really interested in seeing the dynamics of females entering male dominated areas you might find interesting results in those areas: the Armed Forces, Corporate Management, possibly professional sports such as soccer.
I think one can draw great parallels from these 'real life' cases to what happens in the gaming scene.

[Makkal]

The questions:

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

As I'm 30-years-old, I dislike being called a 'girl.' The majority of gamers I spend time with are women and I'm rather fond of them.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

Sure, I find them far more boring.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

Yes.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

'There' not 'their.'

I don't think the genders are homogenous entities, but the majority of interactions I've witnessed have been non-antagonistic.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

Yes, and possibly.

[Lyn Farel]

Ok why not...

Please note that my answers mostly refer to hardcore gaming in general, and certainly not to casual gaming, where female gamers are already more or less playing as much as male gamers, if not even more. I think sexism is mostly a non issue these days in the casual gaming milieu besides a few cases here and there, but I may be wrong. I also think that the fact that the main revenue in the game industry being these days made on casual gaming (cf the 10 most successful titles in the world the last years, all Nintendo titles, starting with Wii-fit and Nintendogs, and also the emergence of new medias like tablets and smartphones), the hardcore gaming milieu tracing back its roots from the early games where mostly male nerds dominated the market is being more and more defensive and aggressive as their market has now become a minority and they tend to be very protective of that milieu in particular, often artificially drawing a big wedge between the "omg retarded casual games" vs "the awesome and manly new AAA titles".

So yes, hardcore gaming, the most visible of the game markets and also the ones where most problems still arise.

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

Respectful and rather impressed how they can deal with it, must not be easy. They surely show more strength than most males gamers.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them??

Sure, in a positive way. cf question 1. We don't see enough of them in core gaming.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

Not that I know of. They always seem rather isolated to me.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

Between casual and hardcore yes. Inside the hardcore milieu, yes, definitely. Cf Anita Sarkeesian case (Feminist Frequency) as a textbook case now. It does not take much time to witness how the usual male population react to the presence of females. Either in a very artificial manner "omg a girl, can I have a date ?" , or just "shut up bitch", to speak crudely with their terms. Generally, it's one of the most macho milieus I have witnessed so far.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

On various online games, yes. But more importantly, in most games themselves as a medium. Created by males mostly (which is slowly fading these days though), they often embody the most ridiculous clichés and prejudices that only contribute to make male gamers as they are. As a game developer, I can safely say that even if most devs do not really want to create sexist games, they actually often do. A good part of sexism in games does not come only from gaming communities, but also from development studios as well as their publishers. In the language, the art direction, the story, through characters... Sexism is rather pervasive in video games.

[Vic Van Meter]

You will get massively skewed answers in a public setting. There's a reason this is done anonymously. Unless the goal is to collect a basis from which to design the questions for a proper survey I see no real benefit in answering these bullet points, as it is very unlikely that someone will come out of the closet in this (moderated!) forum with chauvinistic opinions they might harbor that will go against the already skewed mainstream of opinions here.

But to give you an opinion on the topic: Sexism in gaming. I tend to treat everyone as "generic gamer", which likely means "generic male", because doing the 'find out game' is so bloody retarded, and I'm here to play a game, and not to find a partner. As such I'm not going to give Lady Gamer more extra credit than Mister Gamer, because if people deserve that it's through the merit of their character or their actions, not what they have or don't have in the pants department. If you're really interested in seeing the dynamics of females entering male dominated areas you might find interesting results in those areas: the Armed Forces, Corporate Management, possibly professional sports such as soccer.
I think one can draw great parallels from these 'real life' cases to what happens in the gaming scene.

I think the bigger problem is that EVE is a pretty bad game to ask this in.  It's such an androgynous game to begin with since it's such a hard-numbers, PVP-centric game where we aren't really playing characters as much as we're flying around in ships.  The closest we ever experience each others' avatars in person tends to be in a still shot.  Nor is there an awful lot of style involved in flying; its not as if you can paint your ship pink and purple or put a hula girl on the dash.

EVE's not very sexy, in short.

In fact, the game itself is a little cold and sterile.  When you see someone, you can barely tell what kind of equipment they have, much less whether their avatar is female and even especially whether the player is a girl.  EVE just doesn't provide you with a very personable context.  In the game, we're essentially not people flying the spaceships.  We're spaceships.  They don't have a female Harbinger.

When all is said and done, you might see more sexism (and every other kind of human interaction) in games where the player base has a bit more chance to showcase their own personality through the avatar rather than simply being a more attention-worthy icon in the overview.  It would also be a bit more prevalent in games with a more difficult and varied PVE endgame, as the communication is a little different when your opposition is trying to do exactly the same thing you're doing.  What I mean there is that the PVP experience varies from flight to flight and personal performance is a little more difficult to guage in a setting with ambiguously defined roles.  In WoW, for example, when you hit a raid boss, it's like hitting a brick wall.  You know who isn't making it over the top and why.

I've seen both praise and scorn heaped in more substantial numbers there than in EVE, and that scorn is where you really hear some of the most disgusting things you'll ever hear said in a game.  I think that's only outdone by games that are pure skill-based PVP games like first-person shooters where your opponents can talk to you live.  I think that might be because of the segment of gamers who play that game.  EVE might also be a little more distant and civilized because of the focus on the game towards numbers and preparation over, say, fast-reaction technique.  While you may fail in a raid or in a CTF game because you simply don't have the skill to overcome the same challenges as everyone else, there really isn't that element if a gate camp team blows up your freighter.  If you blow up, you sort of shrug and say, "Meh, I guess this ship isn't really built for drones," and you move on.

As the direct competition rises, the means become more balanced, and the action becomes faster and more technique-heavy, you get a LOT more cross-communication and a lot more e-peen wavers.  EVE is a lot more about indirect self-action, your fit is rarely the same as the people hunting you, and the action is a lot more methodical.  It's just not the kind of game people are going to kill you and send you a message calling you a f****t.

[Lyn Farel]

Tbh Vic, the most sexist attitudes I have experienced were on Eve (platinum achievement to homophobic slurs though). The most hardcore the game... Added to the obnoxious community atmosphere in that game, can detonate very quickly when female gamers are involved.

Actually, especially regarding your last paragraph, it's exactly the contrary in my experience. I have rarely witnessed a community so disgusting as the one living on Eve. Everything is about smack, testosterone contests, taunts, tears drinking. And everything is allowed to reach your goal for that, and that usually starts with the most inventive ways I have seen to be offensive. Only matched in power by FPS games online, except the latter are rarely as insidious as the ones happening in Eve. 

[Louella Dougans]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

In what sense? Most of the time, it doesn't make any difference to me, in interacting with people. There are some people that sometimes bug me, because they attempt to use their gender as a tool, to try and receive gifts, or other assistance from other people. Or to use their gender as a weapon against an opponent. Usually over trivial things.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

Sometimes. I might change my opinion about what sorts of interactions I might want/expect from them.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

Sometimes. And I don't think this is entirely a good thing. Sometimes, there are cliques formed out of self-preservation, which shows there are external factors that create a hostile environment, where a "girl gamer group" is necessary for people to just enjoy playing a game.

4. Do you feel their is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

Yes. There are many, loud, persons with a long list of insults and an attitude to match. Culture of macho and all that.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

Yes. see above. And yes. "Go back to kitchen", "make me a sandwich", "avatar-based gameplay would attract female players, with new industries such as clothing". These things are common, amongst players, and in many instances, developers of games.


Sexism in games appears in many places. I recently played Deus Ex Human Revolution, and there were many instances which felt sexist. Almost all the major characters are male. There is a female character, a pilot, but she is largely just an assistant to other major characters. There is a female antagonist, who does not speak at all. There is an AI newsreader, who is female, and is mentioned as being "appealing to the male demographic". There is a female police officer, who asks for the player's help in an investigation. She's undercover, dressed as a prostitute in a revealing outfit. Of course she is. Why is that necessary to the plot? She could easily have been in uniform, in the police station, or in plainclothes elsewhere. There are other instances, where the player has to rescue a girl from kidnappers, who were going to fit her with augmentations to work as a prostitute. That quest, is given by a female prostitute who operates a brothel. Is it dramatically necessary for so many quests to revolve around rescuing prostitutes from difficult situations? Many female characters require rescuing in the game. There is an element within Deus Ex Human Revolution, involving using people as drones, to augment the capabilities of a large computer. The research behind this device, ingame called "the Hyron Project", does not discriminate between male and female persons, yet all the drones encountered in the game are female. Women who were abducted and turned into drones. In this day and age, it is simply laughable to claim technical reasons for this, such as "limiting the number of models". There are frequent mentions in ingame emails to people fondling these drones, amongst other such activities. In short, this game, set in 2027, features a lot of casually sexist incidents, which may indicate unconscious sexist behaviour by the game's writers and other developers.

[Desiderya]

I think the bigger problem is that EVE is a pretty bad game to ask this in.  It's such an androgynous game to begin with since it's such a hard-numbers, PVP-centric game where we aren't really playing characters as much as we're flying around in ships.  The closest we ever experience each others' avatars in person tends to be in a still shot.  Nor is there an awful lot of style involved in flying; its not as if you can paint your ship pink and purple or put a hula girl on the dash.

EVE's not very sexy, in short.

What the flying fuck is that. It's a numbers game and not about dressing up an avatar, so it's inherently "not for girls"?