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[Kala]

Er. that went a bit wrong.
I seem to have an ongoing hit-quote-instead-of-modify problem. How do I delete a post -.-;;;;;

[Elmund Egivand]

I don't know about you, but I like staring at glowing thruster exhausts all day.

On the issue of community and sexism, one has got to take into account exactly who most of these buggers are. They are some of the most immature, loud-mouthed 'frat-boys' who only think with and about their dangling bits. This is true almost everywhere unmoderated on the internet. Lowest common denominator infesting the place spewing their bile and phlegm just begging to be shot, burnt, stabbed, quartered, obliterated and decimated.

However, we must also take into account exactly what sort of media rubbish they are absorbing, and the fact that these gutter-thrash have a tendency of coagulating like oil spills over seawater, creating echo-chambers while at it. While social programming (extending from many previous generations) play a role, I say the real problem is a combination of unchecked media consumption, the availability of such media online and the sheer ease of retreating away from real life and into the internet to propagate their pigheaded sentiments about gender and sexualism. Unless we could figure out how to deal with this issue without public outrage and other nasty, possibly illegal things, these venomous ideals are just going to propagate, condense and stir up a foul stench in the internet wasteland.

[Jace]

I don't know about you, but I like staring at glowing thruster exhausts all day.

On the issue of community and sexism, one has got to take into account exactly who most of these buggers are. They are some of the most immature, loud-mouthed 'frat-boys' who only thinks with and about their dangling bits. This is true almost everywhere unmoderated on the internet. Lowest common denominator infesting the place spewing their bile and phlegm just begging to be shot, burnt, stabbed, quartered, obliterated and decimated.

That's probably why I do not feel the prevalence of sexism. I do not pay attention to them. I do not even speak to them. My only real meaningful interaction with these people always involve unprovoked violence from either side.

What do you mean by these people?

Sorry, couldn't help it.   

[Elmund Egivand]

I don't know about you, but I like staring at glowing thruster exhausts all day.

On the issue of community and sexism, one has got to take into account exactly who most of these buggers are. They are some of the most immature, loud-mouthed 'frat-boys' who only thinks with and about their dangling bits. This is true almost everywhere unmoderated on the internet. Lowest common denominator infesting the place spewing their bile and phlegm just begging to be shot, burnt, stabbed, quartered, obliterated and decimated.

That's probably why I do not feel the prevalence of sexism. I do not pay attention to them. I do not even speak to them. My only real meaningful interaction with these people always involve unprovoked violence from either side.

What do you mean by these people?

Sorry, couldn't help it.   

I admit I'm...what do you call the bias against loud-mouthed chest-beaters with swollen, blister-covered dangling bits?

[Jace]

I don't know about you, but I like staring at glowing thruster exhausts all day.

On the issue of community and sexism, one has got to take into account exactly who most of these buggers are. They are some of the most immature, loud-mouthed 'frat-boys' who only thinks with and about their dangling bits. This is true almost everywhere unmoderated on the internet. Lowest common denominator infesting the place spewing their bile and phlegm just begging to be shot, burnt, stabbed, quartered, obliterated and decimated.

That's probably why I do not feel the prevalence of sexism. I do not pay attention to them. I do not even speak to them. My only real meaningful interaction with these people always involve unprovoked violence from either side.

What do you mean by these people?

Sorry, couldn't help it.   

I admit I'm...what do you call the bias against loud-mouthed chest-beaters with swollen, blister-covered dangling bits?

Dudebroism.

[Morwen Lagann]

I admit I'm...what do you call the bias against loud-mouthed chest-beaters with swollen, blister-covered dangling bits?

Dudebroism.

Apparently, and predictably, herpes is a prerequisite for derpes.

(I actually want to contribute a serious response to this thread and the survey questions asked; will try to do so later.)

[Lyn Farel]

@Kala : pretty much agree yes. Also I still tend to think there is a difference in the kind of crass idiocy we see on Eve and the generic MMO. It has often seemed a lot more... cunning, or intelligent in Eve. Which does not make it anyless offensive.

[Vic Van Meter]

@Kala : pretty much agree yes. Also I still tend to think there is a difference in the kind of crass idiocy we see on Eve and the generic MMO. It has often seemed a lot more... cunning, or intelligent in Eve. Which does not make it anyless offensive.

Even in major station local chat, I'm not sure anything I've heard in EVE's general community is going to even hit the top ten, and it's not like Tenla Amarr isn't trying.  Disclaimer:  I play Alliance on Moon Guard on WoW, so it might not be a fair competition.  The things said on that server's Elwynn genchat is the reason a lot of you should probably be thankful you play EVE.

I was talking pretty specifically about the game, and the game itself I think is very gender neutral.  Once you get into the community, you're stepping a bit outside the game as far as I'm concerned (but not that you're wrong for thinking it's more important than I do).

How could you talk about your experiences of sexism within a game without talking about the community who plays it, though?

edit: I'd also wonder how you can separate the two; given all sorts of things about the game is going to attract a certain audience, and how the game is played is, or allowed to be played via mechanics or rules, is going to influence behaviour of the players.  I think there has to be some sort of symbiosis between a game and its community, even at times if that means the developers and the playerbase end up being at odds due to competing interests.../ponder

I think it's actually something that's fairly common, but not easy to notice if you're not paying attention.  Essentially, communities are communities; you'll get the same issues pretty much anywhere to some degree or another.  However, if you're talking about sexism in games, you have to talk about setting and substance within the game, and this can amplify and quiet that sort of sexism.

Nevermind the inherent sexism when you're playing a game when you're a seven foot shirtless barbarian carrying an axe the size of an office desk and your female counterparts are wearing what looks like a leather bikini wrapped in tinfoil, but you're simply going to react differently seeing men and women.  EVE very intentionally plays down not just gender and gender roles, but also the idea of the person in general.  It's very much a game about spaceships, not necessarily the people flying them.  You can't even see yourself in 3d unless you jump into the captain's quarters, and even then other players will only ever see a still shot of you.  You are represented by your ship, an interchangeable one that looks precisely the same as everyone else's who bought your particular model.

It might be part of chatting and such, but that happened on chat forums and instant messengers without the benefit of a game.  As far as sexism in games goes, EVE just doesn't give you much of that to think about in-game.

[Lyn Farel]

Oh ? And yet I have been approached in... certain ways by random strangers on Eve.

And that also happened before Incarna, with the old portraits as well.

[Kala]

It might be part of chatting and such, but that happened on chat forums and instant messengers without the benefit of a game.  As far as sexism in games goes, EVE just doesn't give you much of that to think about in-game.

Sure, but it's not exclusive to external stuff like forums and TS, there's also the ingame chat channels

Oh ? And yet I have been approached in... certain ways by random strangers on Eve.

And that also happened before Incarna, with the old portraits as well.

Me too, but this was my portrait so...can't entirely blame them



:p

[Lyn Farel]

Also putting that here for great prejudice 

[Arista Shahni]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?

I am one.  It has it's own subculture as well -- 'gamer girls' versus 'girl gamers', for example.  But that is pretty equal to a "guy gamer" versus a guy who plays one game on an Xbox and calls himself a "gamer".

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?

Okay, this is odd - the answer is yes, and I've always been aware of it.  I'm going to include all MMOs in this example and try to explain.

Number one, their general social behavior is going to be different, because men and woman tend to be raised differently.  As a 'tomboy' with four brothers, I never related well to other women in social settings in my entire life save in very rare circumstances - mainly only if they had upbringings similar in enough ways to my own what we share some personality patterns. 

(Ask some of the other ladies about the rather explosive arguments we've had on and off over the year - because I don't 'fight like a girl' the altercations tend to be relatively short, highly violent, and discarded afterwards - by me anyway - instead of the stewing on topic X for years (ie. a more 'masculine' way of handling it - after a few punches are swung and noses are bloodied by brain says it is time to laugh it off and drop it.)

Number two as I was raised with some 'stereotypes' especially in the fantasty genre, it was always apparent to me that even if a male player was playing a female character who was "main tank" there was always some added nervousness.  It could have to do with the art of teeny little women and giant raid mobs, versus slightly larger men avatars, but who knows.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?

They try to be at times.  I avoid those groups.  They simply end up a digital version of high school girls, which I again never fit in with.

4. Do you feel there is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?

That I've never actually detected.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?

"Trolling" and "flaming" is universal.   Sexism is an easy attack point.  Usually only takes a girl about thirty seconds or less if she is competently skilled at the game to make her sex, gender, whatever, a non-issue.  A lot of words are thrown around the gaming subculture who's definitions are skewed into 'new slang', for example "That's so gay" is rarely referring to homosexuality, but to something ludicrous or unfair, for example.  Part of my brain had muddled over whether it didn't end up shifting in definition due to unrighteous persecutions over people in that gender-group, and when something is referred to as 'gay', it is this larger more "meme'd" definition of "Rediculous thing happening that is unfair for no reason" - especially since a good part of the "gaming/MMO subculture" also seems to include a higher percentage of people who are part of other existing subcultures.  I know when I say something is gay I am not referring to it having intimate relations with something of the same gender, but being "unecessarily unfair and/or rediculous" - and that's not the same definition of the word.

[Vic Van Meter]

Also putting that here for great prejudice 

You haven't seen my wife play Diablo.  We explore every little bit of the map and collect every single thing for cash.  We annoy my brother who only picks up blues when we teleport out twice or three times a dungeon to drain the bags.

And her monk styles are no joke.

[Vikarion]

Also putting that here for great prejudice 

You haven't seen my wife play Diablo.  We explore every little bit of the map and collect every single thing for cash.  We annoy my brother who only picks up blues when we teleport out twice or three times a dungeon to drain the bags.

And her monk styles are no joke.

This is interesting, because I notice that my own exploration and quest habits are highly, almost compulsively utilitarian. That is to say, if I think I can get xp/levels/items from a location, I will investigate every nook and cranny. On the other hand, if I'm at max level, or I have the best gear already, I will simply head for the objective, often even without reference to surroundings, unless they directly threaten me.

A good case study for this was my recent play through of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 - solo character challenge, core rules. In both games, I found myself intent on completing every side-quest and exploring every area - until I hit max level, and suddenly lost all interest in anything but completing the game.

[Ché Biko]

1. What is your opinion on girl gamers?
Don't have one.

2. After finding out an opponent or teammate is the opposite gender, do you feel different about them?
No. Well,  apart from liking them just a bit more because the odds that I could have sex with them have increased ~0.01%. I don't really see much difference in how females and males act, and can't really tell which gender they are until they reveal it, which surprises me quite often. I'm usually not very interested in the gender of the gamer, so I can play with them for a long time before I find out.

3. Do you feel gamer girls are their own clique within gamers as a whole?
No.

4. Do you feel there is a rivalry or alliance between the genders in the gaming community?
Neither.

5. Do you feel sexism is an issue, and if so, have you experienced it?
It is whenever is pops up, but apart from news articles I don't really see or hear much about it. I've had little personal experience, and none in the gaming community.

As her question is based around the use of language centered around women in gaming, your answers are far more important that the questions themselves. Feel free to go off on tangents and explore ideas, but attempt to stick at least generally to the topic.

I kinda suck at questionaires. I tend to overthink the questions and how to interpret them. I didn't do very well in working in some language related stuff. Only things that come to mind is that they get and give a bit more *fluffles, *hugs, and that they tend to use and be called sweet nicknames like "honey" a bit more often.