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[Aellos Lisetier]

It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...

I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless.   In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU

*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.

Personally I'm not so sure, you could well be right but I'm not certain we've really seen anything to confirm this... but then I'm very out of date on my PF.

The reason I think this follows:

Now neurobiology is definitely not my field but dredging back some old memories: there are actually two types of memory: Declarative (facts, figures, basically what we tend to think of as memory) and Procedural memory which covers things like riding a bike, playing a musical instrument, "muscle memory" for sports: things like that: if you've ever stopped trying to remember what your signature is, fallen apart at doing some complex task like playing the piano once you actually started thinking about it, or got stuck trying to remember a password, sat down at a computer and typed it in on automatic: that's procedural memory vs. declarative memory. The thing is these seem to be stored seperately in the brain: one can be lost without the other which can lead to some slightly weird cases with incidences of brain injury where someone experiences retrograde amnesia but retains procedural memory: you can get the situtation where someone loses the memory of learning to play the piano and can't even begin to explain how to go about doing so but if you get them to sit down at a piano and try to play, they'll do so perfectly. All the skills we have in EVE to me seem to fall under declarative memory, not to say this stuff won't help you in a fight: knowing weak points in a body, limitations of a weapons system etc. 

I don't think we have any evidence that you can slot procedural memory though which might throw a bit of a wrench in just downloading a martial art Matrix style: for example I did Judo as a kid but I never reached a very advanced level, now if you pushed me I could probably remember the theory of how you do some of the more advanced throws that I never "learnt" so to speak but if I actually tried to perform them I'd probably do so quite badly: I'd be just "off" enough to end up either flubbing it entirely or using a lot more energy than it should take and I'd have to concentrate all the way instead of it being a smooth action like you'd see in say a fight between two 10th-Dan judokas at a competition, and not just because I'm horrendously out of shape and very rusty on my judo after too many years but I don't "know" how to do that sort of stuff in my muscles instead of my mind as it were.

Of course I could be completely wrong, I wouldn't be surprised but that's my current thinking.

[Silas Vitalia]

Practical:

I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party. 

Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.


Drama:

Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.

[Arista Shahni]

I'm not sure if this is Devil's Advocating or not, but let's think about this.

We say nearly everyone has martial arts training and / or is a gun freak or whatever.

Again I point to the 2 circles.  I'd draw them if my mouse skills weren't so abysmal, but there 'the people who RP' and 'the people who do not'.  This cross section of RPers is a small section of the first much smaller circle.  We still fly through space drowning in the people in the second circle (they're not all bots or something.  I know, I've been in non-RP corps.  'What is RP?' they ask. 'Is that that sex thing?')

Their characters aren't martial art experts.  They never get  out of their capsules from an RP standpoint.  They're the factions and CONCORD's favorite kids specifically because of that.  In there they can stay under control.

Anyone willing to get out of their Capsule and baseline against the rules or social mores that are present in most every faction (even if a Capsuleer is able to mingle with people in the Republic, social mores would keep them in their ships, fighting, Gallente wandering around likely have more than just their personal bodyguards mixed in among the cameras and glamour, Caldari are strictly segregated by way of highly accurate ammunition and seperate station areas, Amarrians are looked at with this odd twisted mix of awe, fear, sadness, and possibly disgust).  This would leave any Capsuleer who wants to be out and about dealing with quite a bit of space paranoia on the ground.  EVE paranoia is far reaching.

Could implants or SOCT training enhance this?  Muscle memory?  Tee-hee.  Cloning makes REAL memory.  Muscle memory is probably a joke to do.  As it is we're born as cloned adults.  Do we need to learn to walk again To run? To talk? To laugh, cry?  Nah.  Those are also muscle memories.   Grimdark dictates we are dumped on a grate in a spash of golden hydrostatic fluid, and we also walk up right behind each other and put a bullet into each other. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yCcRMNT-WI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyXDlZKwgA

Will everyone be an 'expert'? No. 

Will experts tend to run into each other in a way that feels 'tropey' and 'more often'?  Yes.

Why? 

Because Fiction.

Also, because we've in a sense been actively seeking eachother out.  Want to mix fantasy and reality?  Go the entire nine yards.  What made your character look for "other people who don't babble and call me weird slang names all the time"?  Wouldn't that be, erm, dangerous?  Wouldn't you be concerned about defending yourself?  Capsuleer Paranoia and all that?

[Vic Van Meter]

Practical:

I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party. 

Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.


Drama:

Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.

To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore.  Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.

On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups.  Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.

[Silas Vitalia]

Practical:

I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party. 

Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.


Drama:

Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.

To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore.  Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.

On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups.  Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.

Yea but those pirates are all boarding unarmed and untrained ships. Piracy not equal to combat ship vs combat ship.

When the Somali pirates try to board a ship full of people with guns, it tends to not go well.

[Vic Van Meter]

Practical:

I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party. 

Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.


Drama:

Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.

To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore.  Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.

On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups.  Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.

Yea but those pirates are all boarding unarmed and untrained ships. Piracy not equal to combat ship vs combat ship.

When the Somali pirates try to board a ship full of people with guns, it tends to not go well.

That's why you need guns and CQB skills.  So the Somali pirates don't take over our starships.

[Lyn Farel]

Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...

That assumes your capsuleer never leaves the capsule for any reason to do anything.  Especially if capsuleers are incredibly competitive and violent, it's not entirely inconceivable that they'd like to punch people every now and then or that combat sports would be their favorite way to stay fit.

I'd also assume that if you've ever done ship-boarding combat, you aren't just skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but you've probably used it.  At close ranges, you can't rely on firearms.  That's why police officers are almost universally skilled in hand-to-hand combat of some kind or another.  You've got more cause to use it.

If anything, Pieter can probably snap arms in half having been a cop for so long.

Bleh, i'm not an expert but I really can't agree that firearms are useless at close range... Unless you use some kind of cumbersome assault rifle. A pistol thing probably works perfectly fine, you just have to point and shoot. How is that more complicated than using a fancy sword, a knife, or just one's hands ? You don't even need much skill, just reflexes...

I'm pretty sure police officers are skilled in hand-to-hand combat because they are not supposed to use their firearms... Also, are standard police officers trained to hand-to-hand combat ? Really ? I bet your average policeman maybe had a week of formation once...

Anyway ok, let's say that capsuleers need to defend themselves without resorting to lethal means, why not... But why ? Not to breach laws that they are not even bound by ? Because they are philanthropists ?

It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...

I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless.   In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU

*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.

They were described as boosting like hell a lot of attributes (perception, willpower, etc), not teaching how to be a hand-to-hand combat god. Oh, well, I guess capsuleers can definitely beat the average joe with their eyes closed, yeah. Otherwise, i'm not sure a standard capsuleer with no combat knowledge would stand long against a hardened street punk or anything that spent his life brawling.

Now though... Maybe the tech can be hijacked by capsuleers to learn whatever they want...

I don't like that though. I read recently that people (not even capsuleers, but commoners !) use SoCT skillbooks to implant or download memories, ala Remember Me. As much as I like the idea, it sounds completely godmoddy or far stretched to me. Those damn skillbooks are supposed to represent the pinnacle of learning tech and cost fortunes in terms of baseliner money... We don't even know if they have been adapted for other uses than capsuleer skills...

[purple]

It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...

I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless.   In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU

*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.

Personally I'm not so sure, you could well be right but I'm not certain we've really seen anything to confirm this... but then I'm very out of date on my PF.

Knowing CCP, they've given little thought to what retconning the skillbooks out of eve's lore along side it's mechanics means to RP.  IMHO it was the learning skills that made capsuleers trans-human and without them they are just...human.   Considering tran-humanity is the major  theme of Eve RP that's a big  .

Clarity -SOCT Advanced awareness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop almost superhuman sensory abilities and can react to stimuli so fast that, to the untrained eye, it almost seems as if they can predict the future.

Eidetic Memory - SOCT Advanced mnemonic training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential, allowing them to recall nearly anything they have ever experienced with total lucidity.

Focus - SOCT Advanced self-discipline training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students are able to remain focused and alert under extreme pressure, and can ignore pain and fatigue for extended periods of time.

Logic - SOCT Advanced intelligence training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop an intuitive understanding of complex patterns and are able to grasp esoteric concepts with incredible ease.

Presence - SOCT Advanced social consciousness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop heightened mental sensitivity, to the point of being able to sense the surface mood and emotions of a person.

[Morwen Lagann]

Considering that the attribute points we got from training the all of the learning skills to 5 have been rolled into our heads by default, I think it's probably safe to imply or suggest that they are included as part of your capsule training program.

[purple]

Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...

The U.S Navy does, and frequently.  Even the cooks.  However, in the training scenarios the OpFor is usually a suicide bomber or fellow sailor that's snapped and not a pirate boarding party.  Personally I don't feel the quality of the training is very good but we do it at least.   We learn something call mechanical advantage holds (which is useless),  tactical movements as a team (leap-frogging) and train to use the Mosberg 500 shotgun, M9 Beretta, M4 Carbine and OC spray

Part of the training requires you to be hit with the OC spray then go fight the "Red Man"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYNKV3GCODY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDaKmbJp6LA

As you can see it often ends up looking more like a nerd on nerd slap-fest.    I personally like to call OC Spray "Little bitch in a can,"  because that's what it turns you into.  The guys in the first video must have had a remarkably un-potent batch (which happens) as they aren't all sobering and begging for it to be over.

Edit:  This is a much more common reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmJuMStuhC4

Also, here is a Clip of US Navy boarding training.   Anybody can sign up for a VBSS team, but not everyone goes through it like in the above Force Protection training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qRIvblNnjM

Vid of MACH, the hand to hand training we get and is essentially useless the subject is compliant, drunk or OC'd :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfIHUV5biGk

[Vic Van Meter]

Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...

That assumes your capsuleer never leaves the capsule for any reason to do anything.  Especially if capsuleers are incredibly competitive and violent, it's not entirely inconceivable that they'd like to punch people every now and then or that combat sports would be their favorite way to stay fit.

I'd also assume that if you've ever done ship-boarding combat, you aren't just skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but you've probably used it.  At close ranges, you can't rely on firearms.  That's why police officers are almost universally skilled in hand-to-hand combat of some kind or another.  You've got more cause to use it.

If anything, Pieter can probably snap arms in half having been a cop for so long.

Bleh, i'm not an expert but I really can't agree that firearms are useless at close range... Unless you use some kind of cumbersome assault rifle. A pistol thing probably works perfectly fine, you just have to point and shoot. How is that more complicated than using a fancy sword, a knife, or just one's hands ? You don't even need much skill, just reflexes...

I'm pretty sure police officers are skilled in hand-to-hand combat because they are not supposed to use their firearms... Also, are standard police officers trained to hand-to-hand combat ? Really ? I bet your average policeman maybe had a week of formation once...

Anyway ok, let's say that capsuleers need to defend themselves without resorting to lethal means, why not... But why ? Not to breach laws that they are not even bound by ? Because they are philanthropists ?

It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...

I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless.   In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU

*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.

They were described as boosting like hell a lot of attributes (perception, willpower, etc), not teaching how to be a hand-to-hand combat god. Oh, well, I guess capsuleers can definitely beat the average joe with their eyes closed, yeah. Otherwise, i'm not sure a standard capsuleer with no combat knowledge would stand long against a hardened street punk or anything that spent his life brawling.

Now though... Maybe the tech can be hijacked by capsuleers to learn whatever they want...

I don't like that though. I read recently that people (not even capsuleers, but commoners !) use SoCT skillbooks to implant or download memories, ala Remember Me. As much as I like the idea, it sounds completely godmoddy or far stretched to me. Those damn skillbooks are supposed to represent the pinnacle of learning tech and cost fortunes in terms of baseliner money... We don't even know if they have been adapted for other uses than capsuleer skills...

I think you'd be surprised what your average police officer knows how to do.  I know they don't get the best press as far as skills go, but yes, police officers (at least in the U.S.) are almost universally skilled in both soft locks and hard strikes.  Essentially, they have to be.  It isn't just a matter of not wanting to use lethal force, it's that if people know you're armed, they wait for you to start patting them down or getting close before they assault you.  Police holsters are actually impossible to draw the gun out of unless you know how to rock it back and forth.

As for keeping people alive, actually there are plenty of reasons, mostly because once someone is dead, they're of no value.  If you need someone alive, whether for information or as a hostage, it'd be important.  I'd see that as being much more important for Amarrians keeping slaves in line (killing them makes them completely valueless).  I think it's a bit of a misnomer that guns are absolutely easy to use at close range, or at all.  Having fired quite a few pistols in my life, if you're not in the Weaver stance, a pistol can be incredibly cumbersome to use.  If you can get it pointed at the torso where it won't go anywhere, you'd be fine, but if someone gets hold of your gun arm, it can be just as dangerous to you as it is to your opponent.  Police Glocks usually have a magazine safety, so that if someone does manage to get into grappling reach of an officer, they can just thumb the release and make the gun unable to fire the round in the chamber.  They also tend to have grip safeties, so that if the gun is being held awkwardly and without sufficient pressure, it won't fire.  The problem is that if you fire a bullet into concrete at your feet, you can have fragments spraying back at you.

EVE firearms may be different, but there's a reason people are still rigorously taught some manner of practical hand-to-hand combat in those kinds of jobs.  Firing guns effectively is a lot harder to do than it looks.  If you've got an imminent threat within arm's reach, you're usually taught not to even reach for it.  You have to get control of the situation first.

I know maybe the idea of hand-to-hand combat seems really old fashioned, but it's definitely still important even today.  Guns are a lot more dangerous and difficult to use in real life than in movies.

[Lyn Farel]

Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.

Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?

I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.

And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...

[purple]

I remember reading somewhere that 90% of the pistol shoot outs police are involved end with both sides running out of ammo and nobody wounded.   I have no links to back that up though.

[Vic Van Meter]

Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.

Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?

I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.

And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...

Do you live in the United States?  Police officers here in Columbus, Ohio are definitely trained in hand-to-hand combat including barehanded striking, control locks, neutralizing armed suspects, use of batons, and more.  I know a few police officers personally who've demonstrated a few maneuvers.  I can't imagine a place on Earth where it would be okay to not know how to handle yourself as a police officer considering you have to follow a use-of-force guideline.  Like I said, you'd be surprised what police officers have to know how to do.  If someone isn't armed and decides to punch the crap out of you, you need to know how to get advantage again.  Patrol officers especially have to take and retake fitness tests in some fairly nasty techniques every year or few years.

Purple is right that shootouts at point-blank range generally involve a LOT of ammo being sprayed and no one being hit.  If you've never fired one before, a firearm is harder to control than you'd think.  First and most important, you need to provide resistance to an autoloading pistol, since it's actually force from recoil that cycles the action.  If you aren't gripping the gun correctly and provide no resistance when you fire, the gun can jam, pistols especially.  Second, keeping control when you fire is exceptionally difficult when you're pulling the trigger quickly.  You also need to be providing some backwards resistance to steady it.  Third, if you fire into something nearby that is not elastic and you're using a regular old FMJ round, the bullet will simply explode and you could be injured by your own shrapnel.

Police officers are trained to not reach for their weapons if they won't have it out and ready to fire before someone arrives to take it from them.  Guns are exceedingly dangerous.  Until they began building in magazine and grip safeties, it was actually very common that, if an officer was shot in the line of duty, it was with his own weapon.  It was in my gun-safety booklet they gave me when my father-in-law took me to a local club, so I might be able to get the precise statistic when I get home.  Even that booklet told me that if I was ever within arm's reach of someone, not to draw while they are looking at me.  As soon as your gun arm isn't entirely in your control anymore, the gun is as dangerous to you as anyone else.

I understand the skepticism, though.  Movies and even real-life professionals make it look very easy after years and years of practice.  Guns aren't as easy to handle as they look, though.  Pistols especially are very hard to control because there is less mass to absorb recoil.  That's more of what I'm talking about with EVE weapons, though.  A laser weapon would essentially have no recoil and no kinetic force.  That would make firing a laser weapon much easier, especially at close ranges.

[Arista Shahni]

My father in law in the met (London) showed me 4 ways to incapacitate a man in three seconds on my husband, who is over a foot taller than him and father in law is prob half his size.  (the first one he just reached for my husbands hand and asked "Wanna see something?")

He also grinned like a predator when the riots kicked off though and WANTED to be in the riot lines with the hopes he got to bash some chav's skull in, but hey.

And sis in law who is in a smalltown police force in England can also beat the shit out of someone in about 3 seconds flat - specifically because they AREN'T armed with anythign but that collapsible baton, and if they're lucky, a family member, or they, added a Maglite to their arsenal of innocent looking objects on their belts.

There is an *impression* that police officers are these lazy slow stumbling things.

Do not believe it.  That's how they land you on your face on the street with your arm bent in interesting ways.  On some level they WANT to look harmless.  They are not to give off the impression of uniformed thugs.  They are to be friendly and approachable.  Which may look like the slightly pudgy smiling absent minded looking fellow (which is my father in law) and though he is slightly pudgy, and he may be smiling, he is not absent minded and will fucking own you, even at 54.