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[Lyn Farel]

I'm not sure how it is in other countries but I have heard now several times that the usual trope consisting to say that immigrants steal our jobs where I live is actually more or less patently false, since they do the jobs that nobody does.

[Morwen Lagann]

That's generally my response whenever I hear someone bitching about that.

"Right, because you really fucking wanted that janitor job, or to shovel poop on a farm all day for less than minimum wage."

[Vic Van Meter]

My whole issue with using immigrant workers isn't with the immigrants, it's with their "employers."  It's sort of a big problem with contractors, since sometimes you'll see a very low construction bid and know exactly how they're getting the bid so low.  Then you have a quandary.  You can't use them because they're subverting labor laws and you ultimately become responsible.  However, they were the lowest bidder.  You need to prove they're the lowest bidder for that reason, but sometimes that can cost you a lot of money and make it useless.  So instead, you have a certain threshold you are willing to pay above the lowest bidder to ensure they use ethical labor.  At the same time, that means you might be putting a legitimately low bid out of contention on a suspicion and you aren't guaranteeing that the people who are paying more are actually using legit labor, but are spiking the price.

It's a hell of an issue for us.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I think you folks are derailing the topic because of my metaphor. How does that have anything to do with the OP?

[Makoto Priano]

So. Bringing it back to the Disassociated, what I wonder is this: why are we equating Disassociated with the unemployed? Sure, there's likely significant overlap; but one does not necessarily imply the other.

By this I mean to say that we're still thinking in terms of classic corporations, who have no obligation whatsoever to their employees save a wage. Caldari Megacorps are more corporation-states in the sense of nation-states, complete with a remarkable degree of sovereignty and internal legislative power. They may see the economic advantage of having short-term unemployment insurance and job retraining programs. Imagine, for instance, that you've got a plan producing Fancy Drone Doohicky X1645; for whatever reason, it suddenly becomes obsolete (Curse you, Fozzie! Curse yooouu!), and the workforce has to be laid off. While the colony/station/Battlestar has an economy that can withstand the shift in the mid- or long-term, in the short term the sudden drop in spending by recently laid-off workers would have catastrophic effects on other businesses in the area.

Voila-- economic incentive for a short stint on welfare, and a retraining program for those who can be retrained and still show the motivation/desire to contribute economically. In basic terms, these programs would assist those faced with frictional unemployment; if those workers are unable to be retrained in a timely fashion, or for whatever other reason aren't able to find employment, well-- structural unemployment is where we see Disassociated.

[Lyn Farel]

I think you folks are derailing the topic because of my metaphor. How does that have anything to do with the OP?

My point was merely that employing non citizens does not always equate to "stealing" the jobs of the locals...

[Vic Van Meter]

So. Bringing it back to the Disassociated, what I wonder is this: why are we equating Disassociated with the unemployed? Sure, there's likely significant overlap; but one does not necessarily imply the other.

By this I mean to say that we're still thinking in terms of classic corporations, who have no obligation whatsoever to their employees save a wage. Caldari Megacorps are more corporation-states in the sense of nation-states, complete with a remarkable degree of sovereignty and internal legislative power. They may see the economic advantage of having short-term unemployment insurance and job retraining programs. Imagine, for instance, that you've got a plan producing Fancy Drone Doohicky X1645; for whatever reason, it suddenly becomes obsolete (Curse you, Fozzie! Curse yooouu!), and the workforce has to be laid off. While the colony/station/Battlestar has an economy that can withstand the shift in the mid- or long-term, in the short term the sudden drop in spending by recently laid-off workers would have catastrophic effects on other businesses in the area.

Voila-- economic incentive for a short stint on welfare, and a retraining program for those who can be retrained and still show the motivation/desire to contribute economically. In basic terms, these programs would assist those faced with frictional unemployment; if those workers are unable to be retrained in a timely fashion, or for whatever other reason aren't able to find employment, well-- structural unemployment is where we see Disassociated.

I don't play Caldari, so maybe I'm just not in the loop, but isn't the idea of the State picking you up by your bootstraps, teaching you a new occupation, and getting you a job very un-Caldari?  Maybe it's just the way they're roleplayed, but I had a strong sense that the Caldari have a very Darwinian approach to competition.  If you're unemployed, by Caldari logic, the odds are that there's a good reason.  I thought work programs and welfare were very Gallentean concepts (and, if you'd like, the Amarrians technically have a work and welfare program ).

I suppose I'd figure that's why the Disassociated would be exploited.  Obviously, if they're unemployed by Caldari logic, they aren't good for more than temporary or dangerous work because, if they had been, they'd have gotten themselves better jobs.

[Desiderya]

Of course caldari don't treat dissassociated badly. This Would Not Be Nice Behaviour. And We Can Not Have That.

[Makoto Priano]

Vic;

The issue is that we get one-dimensional, mustachio-twirling grimdark CAPITALISM UBER ALLES jackboot Caldari. The PF repeatedly mentions communalism, a society built on social pressure, and a sense of duty and responsibility-- but these last virtues surely go both up AND down. Otherwise, we get TonyG-style Caldari built on a caricature of late capitalism excess, and screw that.

When I say social safety net, I'm not talking mandated paid vacation (what? vacation? citizen, get back to work!), or an extensive welfare and retirement system (what? retirement? Unless you're rich, citizen, get back to work!). I'm saying that -some- elements of a safety net are economically beneficial-- and the Caldari are supposed to be entirely too pragmatic to just go, "Plant closed. Citizenship revoked. Fuck off, we're imprisoning you so that you can go mine asteroids," when at least some of the workforce may be recoverable.

 I could easily see a reasonable corporate policy being a three month stint at a retraining facility with bare bunks and a prison-quality cafeteria, where workers whose quarterly performance reviews indicate are viable for retraining endure said retraining-- and if they can't find a new position or don't pass qualification exams? Welp, sorry, citizen, you're on your own. Oh, you were an auditor at a ritzy firm that got shuttered due to the CEO's embezzlement? Well-- he's in the gulags now, and you're at the retraining facility because there aren't positions open. How do you like ten-hour days of data entry? The CV here says you're qualified for financial sector work...

We don't have to twirl mustaches to make a grimdark world.

[Ayallah]

I like this. Very cool stuff!

[Elmund Egivand]

Vic;

The issue is that we get one-dimensional, mustachio-twirling grimdark CAPITALISM UBER ALLES jackboot Caldari. The PF repeatedly mentions communalism, a society built on social pressure, and a sense of duty and responsibility-- but these last virtues surely go both up AND down. Otherwise, we get TonyG-style Caldari built on a caricature of late capitalism excess, and screw that.

When I say social safety net, I'm not talking mandated paid vacation (what? vacation? citizen, get back to work!), or an extensive welfare and retirement system (what? retirement? Unless you're rich, citizen, get back to work!). I'm saying that -some- elements of a safety net are economically beneficial-- and the Caldari are supposed to be entirely too pragmatic to just go, "Plant closed. Citizenship revoked. Fuck off, we're imprisoning you so that you can go mine asteroids," when at least some of the workforce may be recoverable.

 I could easily see a reasonable corporate policy being a three month stint at a retraining facility with bare bunks and a prison-quality cafeteria, where workers whose quarterly performance reviews indicate are viable for retraining endure said retraining-- and if they can't find a new position or don't pass qualification exams? Welp, sorry, citizen, you're on your own. Oh, you were an auditor at a ritzy firm that got shuttered due to the CEO's embezzlement? Well-- he's in the gulags now, and you're at the retraining facility because there aren't positions open. How do you like ten-hour days of data entry? The CV here says you're qualified for financial sector work...

We don't have to twirl mustaches to make a grimdark world.

On that note, this is what I like about Templar One: The Caldari society is portrayed as one that promotes productivity, so much so that their citizens consider productivity to be the highest of virtues. If they find they are unable to do one thing, the State will find something that they CAN do. And if they show the aptitude but not the skills, they are sent off for retraining instead of simply sentenced to a salt mine somewhere. And finally, they will punish those who are impeding the productivity of their citizens, at least that's how I see it when the judges decided to exonerate the protagonist who would become a Templar and favor punishing his drunkard abusive father instead. Hell, he even got a job in the end, which he flunked in favor of rescuing his sister from an abusive executive lover.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Can we ignore the ridiculously stupid excesses (I don't mind the non-ridiculously stupid excesses). Efficiency doesn't chuck out good material - if you're an awesome worker, you'll likely get picked up after an RIF and redeployed, perhaps with retraining if it warrants it.

[Vic Van Meter]

Can we ignore the ridiculously stupid excesses (I don't mind the non-ridiculously stupid excesses). Efficiency doesn't chuck out good material - if you're an awesome worker, you'll likely get picked up after an RIF and redeployed, perhaps with retraining if it warrants it.

Well, I don't know about ridiculously stupid.  Lots of people would want to toe the line.  But, if a corporation thought it could get away with it, the Disassociated are just sitting there ripe for the taking.  Just like slavery is supposed to be an educational system that works sort of midway between optimal and exploitation, so would be the Caldari corporate law.  I'd assume a relatively small number of paragons of the system are going above and beyond to be good to their employees, particularly in knowledge-heavy fields.  I'd assume most corporations are in the middle, scraping the bare minimum or stretching the laws to cut operational costs.  I'd also assume there are a relatively small number of corporations who are willing to break every law they can get away with in order to maximize profits.  Given how many businesses operate in Caldari space, I'm assuming that's one of their major domestic issues.

I mean, you've got a people just on the fringes of the law that are desperate, impoverished, and lacking in anything but rudimentary job skills.  They have limited to no personal rights.  Even if it's illegal, someone is definitely going to use them.  I'd say that, especially since the corporations run things and are beholden to their shareholders, that it would be more rare for discovered exploitation to be kicked up the ladder high enough to someone who would take action.  That's the dark side of corporate systems having massive political influence.  The people in charge have every reason to not bring it up since they're profiting off of the law breaking.

To counteract that, you'd probably need an independent corporation, paid on results, that went around vigorously hunting corruption with almost unlimited investigatory powers.  I'm not sure the Caldari have that exactly.  They're probably more worried when someone "overdoes" the corruption or if it makes the news (or at least other peoples' news).

Whatever it is, the Disassociated that don't go into lives of crime are just too easy a target to not exploit.  I'm assuming that's why so many go into criminal careers to begin with.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I don't have a problem with the concept of exploiting the disassociated, the only issue I have is with the idea of Corporations creating millions of them willy-nilly. Given the sheer size of the Okusaiken, with their billion divisions and subsidiary companies, it's far more likely that a worker whose role becomes redundant will wind up uprooted and shifted far away to another, perhaps less desirable, job.

Larger Corporations IRL have been doing this for decades - and an RL corporation can't be anything near the size of one of the eight, not even close, even given the low population density of the State.

I would think that any period of time as a Disassociated would be an indelible black mark on an employees record - a period of time when they pass out of the control of the corporation, when they leave the womb. As a Corporate Security officer, I would be highly suspicious of Disassociated new hires, because of the competition between the Okusaiken. Hell, I bet there's wicked competition between individual divisions and subsidiaries too - all trying to prove themselves the best Lai Dai or Ishukone or whatever.

[Vic Van Meter]

I was under the impression that the Disassociated were more than just people who'd lost their jobs.  I thought they were the kind of people who had a very good reason to have been fired, like if they caught you stealing from the till or if you'd organized a strike.  Maybe the odd one is a person who's just been outmoded and been forcibly retired.