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[V. Gesakaarin]

Want a good way to get around that?  Have a "human moment."

Like, Veik suddenly gets on the IGS blisteringly drunk and has a stream of consciousness rant going from back to front over all those arguments, in a nonsequitor order?

That'll make life interesting on the IGS!

I think the fundamental issue with that is that Veik as a character is someone who I'm trying to portray as having the psychological impacts of continued combat and exposure to violence due to the PvP I as a player engage in -- the hyper-arousal, aggression, feelings of being on edge, and anger without the associated anxieties of fearing death -- so she doesn't really have, "human moments" because she's someone completely different to the person she used to be all those months ago before she first entered a hydrostatic capsule.

The amusing thing is that she's become the very thing she used to loathe. How's that for irony.

[Vic Van Meter]

Want a good way to get around that?  Have a "human moment."

Like, Veik suddenly gets on the IGS blisteringly drunk and has a stream of consciousness rant going from back to front over all those arguments, in a nonsequitor order?

That'll make life interesting on the IGS!

I think the fundamental issue with that is that Veik as a character is someone who I'm trying to portray as having the psychological impacts of continued combat and exposure to violence due to the PvP I as a player engage in -- the hyper-arousal, aggression, feelings of being on edge, and anger without the associated anxieties of fearing death -- so she doesn't really have, "human moments" because she's someone completely different to the person she used to be all those months ago before she first entered a hydrostatic capsule.

The amusing thing is that she's become the very thing she used to loathe. How's that for irony.

It's probably because I didn't know Veik before, so I haven't seen the shift.  I seriously thought Veik was a satire of PVP nerd-raging goons.

[Gaven Lok ri]

A bad RPer is one who is completely one-dimensional and boring, falling into the easy slip of the background noise.

I could not disagree with this statement more.

EVE needs the characters who come across as petty. It needs the characters who come across as one dimensional. It needs the characters who are the reason for the racial stereotypes. It needs the people who are boring. The background noise has to exist and has to be played out, or the world does not function.

Without them, you end up with an unbelievable world.

I do not consider good roleplay to be about entertaining other people, I see it as being about making the game world a more elaborate and developed place. To do this you need both your unique characters designed to stand out and your characters designed to conform. If everyone flamboyantly stands out, then no one actually stands out.

If the existence of your character adds something to the world, even if that addition comes across as one dimensional and just another voice in the background noise, it is good roleplay. Pretty much period.

[Louella Dougans]

If everyone flamboyantly stands out, then no one actually stands out.

relevant

[Vic Van Meter]

A bad RPer is one who is completely one-dimensional and boring, falling into the easy slip of the background noise.

I could not disagree with this statement more.

EVE needs the characters who come across as petty. It needs the characters who come across as one dimensional. It needs the characters who are the reason for the racial stereotypes. It needs the people who are boring. The background noise has to exist and has to be played out, or the world does not function.

Without them, you end up with an unbelievable world.

I do not consider good roleplay to be about entertaining other people, I see it as being about making the game world a more elaborate and developed place. To do this you need both your unique characters designed to stand out and your characters designed to conform. If everyone flamboyantly stands out, then no one actually stands out.

If the existence of your character adds something to the world, even if that addition comes across as one dimensional and just another voice in the background noise, it is good roleplay. Pretty much period.

I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment, essentially because one-dimensionality is extremely unrealistic.  Nobody really is one-dimensional, even if they tried, as trying becomes a dimension.  However, it's probably the most common problem in RP, that people can't get that second layer in.  A one-dimensional character isn't a character, it's just a piece of the setting.  The problem with background noise is that it doesn't serve a real purpose.  You can be boring or petty or even playing to a racial stereotype as a character, but you need a reason to be doing it because people aren't solely boring, petty, or stereotypical unless they're trying in the real world.  The problem is that sometimes, people don't get that second layer in behind their characters to explain why they are what they are.

People playing UAD aren't really adding anything to the ongoing roleplay except volume.  For the most part, it's an extra scroll or two on the mouse wheel to get to something more worth the time to read.  It might be roleplay by definition, but it definitely isn't any good if it's just a cardboard backdrop of a person.

[Nissui]

...should I avoid certain topics completely or should I avoid talking about anything that might offend you and only discuss the topic of my characters attempts to grow Kresh trees for a personal tea supply? Should I even bother with RP beyond writing stories about my character and talking on forums such as this?

This is basically how I approach it, as a new RPer and someone who has established a habit of developing characters with no interest in empire politics. It's more of a hindrance to my own RP really, but Nisme doesn't even join The Summit and has no more than a couple posts in IGS. As long as I maintain ownership of this exile, I don't feel at all at odds with the general community.

Even in those less-peopled channels more geared to her interests, there is seldom cause for meaningful interaction. Thus the character development and fiction subforums will likely be the best way for me to hammer out her persona, as much as I think it's preferrable to work it up in-game with others. It seems like perhaps the same is true for you from time to time?

[Gaven Lok ri]

Take a look at real political discussion boards.

People there come across as one dimensional all the time. How people come across and how they actually are are two separate things.

You are assuming that characters that come across as one dimensional are in fact one dimensional.

You are also imposing your view of what you like to see in roleplay on other roleplayers and defining that view as good.

If someone is trying to add to the game world, even if they are doing it somewhat one dimensionally, it is good.

My experience says that the only bad RP is RP that actively breaks with the game world and is immersion breaking. Everything else is good.

[V. Gesakaarin]

It's probably because I didn't know Veik before, so I haven't seen the shift.  I seriously thought Veik was a satire of PVP nerd-raging goons.

She wouldn't be very human if there weren't a wide array of perspectives and even contradictory views about her. I just play her as she is, from moment to moment, and just let things flow from there.

[Lyn Farel]

Other characters have pretty drastic differences between how they act on the IGS and in person too. Lyn's a good example - she seems a lot like Morwen in that regard; even though their methods of arguing and snarking are different (and often incompatible), they're both much quieter and reserved in person.

Lyn doesn't do it for masks. Making up for herself a controversial and abrasive aura is rather alien to her, but the way she reacts on the IGS mostly stems from an innate desire to keep her distances with people and to remain isolated. Mostly through either a cold, distant and formal tone, or more rarely through cynical snipes, which are mostly aimed at people she finds highly annoying. It's more a shell than a mask.

She also tends to be rather misanthropic.

However she will never consciously try to shitpost. Usually she tries to stay above, question of principles.

The thought ICly I keep in mind for the IGS is this.

The IGS is entirely for baseliner's benefit.   Read it in a bad reality television voice.

Keep that in mind and always remember the drinking game:

Drink a shot every time you 'hear' the following:

"ad hominem"

Someone is called out as an IGS mouthpiece

"strawman argument"

"circular logic"

Someone saying or elaborating on "you have no idea what my life is like" in a dramatic argument to explain their behavior.

"So edgy"

Anytime someone uses more than three paragraphs to state a point that can be encapsulated in a single sentence - or has no actual point at all (not including open personal logs)

For the sake of liver safety, one only toasts to the screen and does not drink at the following:

Anything calling for the death of the Federation

Anything calling for the death of the Amarr Empire

Anytime someone talks about how difficult life is in a world that is officially so grimdark that a 'normal life' (and consider your RL a 'normal life' and calculate said RL stresses into said thought process) is actually likely EASIER, minues the killing of thousands of baseliners in ships.

Any story about slaves for the Amarr Empire or Khanid Kingdom.

"Free Speech", "Democracy", or any other Western ideals that have no real paralell in New Eden.

Anytime a thread of any topic is hijacked by Caldari players to discuss the State.

Drink the full bottle if:

Someone apologizes

Someone concedes someone else's point and agrees they are correct

A post that involves any Amarrian spirituality / Religion isn't immediately attacked by an atheist for being "psychos who worship an invisible sky god".  Drink two bottles if it is a Wayist or a Minmatar who follows the Spiritusalist/Shamanic tradition.

I'm sure there's more, but my own liver wouldn't handle it.

Hahaha, that's so true.

Take a look at real political discussion boards.

People there come across as one dimensional all the time. How people come across and how they actually are are two separate things.

You are assuming that characters that come across as one dimensional are in fact one dimensional.

You are also imposing your view of what you like to see in roleplay on other roleplayers and defining that view as good.

If someone is trying to add to the game world, even if they are doing it somewhat one dimensionally, it is good.

My experience says that the only bad RP is RP that actively breaks with the game world and is immersion breaking. Everything else is good.

I don't think that's what he says...

[Vic Van Meter]

Take a look at real political discussion boards.

People there come across as one dimensional all the time. How people come across and how they actually are are two separate things.

You are assuming that characters that come across as one dimensional are in fact one dimensional.

You are also imposing your view of what you like to see in roleplay on other roleplayers and defining that view as good.

If someone is trying to add to the game world, even if they are doing it somewhat one dimensionally, it is good.

My experience says that the only bad RP is RP that actively breaks with the game world and is immersion breaking. Everything else is good.

I think you're missing a distinction I made, that there is a big difference between playing a one-dimensional character and playing a character putting on a one dimensional face.  I brought that up in the original response and in my response to you.  In fact, the problem with one-dimensionality is that it doesn't add anything to the game world by definition.  If someone has said something for one reason and in a certain way, and then another comes along and says exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason and in exactly the same way, then we're not making progress.  We're just dumping in calories that have no more flavor or nutrition.

That's my opinion, if that opinion is me imposing my view on roleplayers and defining what good and bad is, then that is very much the object of an opinion and it is subject for anyone and everyone to ignore at their leisure and to tell me they're doing so if they feel I have a particular need to be informed.  You can feel free to disagree at your discretion and convenience and do precisely the same thing I've done.  I feel confident in my definition of bad RP because I've never seen an otherwise complete character kill RP with a lore flaw, but I've seen a lot of call-and-response crowds kill an RP scene by smothering it to death.  The reason for that might not necessarily be the toxicity of either, but because most people will realize and call a lore flaw, but nobody seems to realize that they're crowding out the good sound with virtually useless static because it simply takes more people to do it.

As one of my early RP mentors told me when I did a bit too much call-and-response RP, "This isn't a fucking panto and if it was, you're not the fucking audience.  Make it worth your time to type and their time to read, or go play Quake and don't waste anyone's time."

Maybe not the most eloquent of advice, but I can still at least paraphrase it all these years later.

[Vic Van Meter]

It's probably because I didn't know Veik before, so I haven't seen the shift.  I seriously thought Veik was a satire of PVP nerd-raging goons.

She wouldn't be very human if there weren't a wide array of perspectives and even contradictory views about her. I just play her as she is, from moment to moment, and just let things flow from there.

There's a technique to that you get into once you've had a character forever.  Eventually, you don't have to wonder what that particular character would do; you just know.  I would say the wide array of perspectives doesn't reflect her as a character, but that there are actually a lot of characters out there with some variety.  You just don't often get to let it breathe.

Maybe that's why the whole Caldari on Caldari bashing for a minute there was so entertaining.  Everyone suddenly found the ranks kind of broken and we suddenly got a flash of individuality out of everyone.  I was enjoying it!

[Ayallah]

Okay okay okay okay.

First off I am a new player (nine months or so).  Eve is my first mmo and this is my first attempt at RP so let that color your interpretation of the following:

Eve is a pvp game. 

No matter what you do or where you go you are subject to the will of other players.  You can make friends, join corps or do 'safe' things but in the end, you WILL learn this lesson. If you do not they you have not played long enough.

RP is zero percent different.  Zero. ZERO.

Let me tell you a story, I bumbled my way into RP when I mistakenly thought that RP and the Summit were synonymous with Faction warfare.  I thought that is just how it was done.  I played for a bit and literally made my character backstory when I found a 'group of Kameiras' in a shitty mission.  That is how I made Aya.  I started to act like I thought a Kameira should and I got shot the fuck down.  I got mocked and ridiculed IC.  I had to completely rethink my character from the very bottom.  Why?  Because I was flying a ship I could not afford to lose.  What I did was the IC equivalent of undocking in a shitfit rifter, minmatar frigate to one and T1 guns, no prop mod etc…

I stated my opinion in the summit in contention to much older and well developed characters (I went Suspect/ attacked someone) and I got shot the hell down.  TS-F, Ava, and many many others all jumped on to whore the KM.  Because I brought a shitfit wolf with no prop mod to a group of people with Caps, T3's battleships, people who had literal Titans worth of IC knowledge experience and investment.  I got fucking ReKt.

And I deserved it too.  Looking back, I deserved ever single bit of it. I would have done the exact same thing to me.  This is eve not my little pony.

So I started over, read the chrons, asked experienced players, put myself in a safer place, flew cheaper plotlines, ones I could afford to back out of.
I trained the skills, and now I can fly the fuck out of a goddamn Wolf, I can RP the fuck out of a angry Kameira named Ayallah.  I have a Faction (corp), minmatar loyalist and nullsecer.  I have experience in my Areas of expertise.  I have respect that I have earned now.  And more importantly I know what fights I can take.  I know to not 1v1 Ava when it comes to how to minmatar. I know to not take my 'still' shitfit wolf to TS-F home system and tell them now to Sansha.  Not unless I am cloned up and ready to lose a ship you know?

I do not think anyone can out Aya me anymore.  No one says a damn thing about being a Kameira or being a Minmatar/brutor/belligerent to me.  Why? Because I know that particular plot-line better than anyone.  And the parts that I don't, I work with the people of my faction who do.  I make up shit all the time about being a brutor and a kameira, outlandish things that are honestly further that I went even in the beginning. Difference is, I can back it up with experience and knowledge, with a believable story and people who will support it for one reason or the other.  Even if it is because I am not worth the effort or they do not want to start a fight with me they might lose.  Still counts.   And the things I don't know?  I rely on my faction, on the friends and more experienced people I know IC and OOC. I don't jump in and tell Ava fucking starfire how to sebiestor ...you dig?  I follow her lead and in return I get the support from her when I say things about being Matari or Brutor.  I got dangerous, earned the respect that I rely on to fly.  Now, other people worry about me in local (making claims etc) now people ask me what nullsec or kameira-ness is like.  Now, people do not argue with me or shoot me down.  ...But if I take my ass to someone's home system (caldari rp/sansha rp/gallentean rp or what have you) I can get shot down too.  Not my space, not what my ship can fight etc.  Not checks my ass can cash.

There are two options, you can whine about it or you can HTFU  and learn the PF, learn to fit your ship, learn how to play eve. EARN the respect.  Or you can play a safe player, a high sec care bear equivalent.  But you can and will get ganked just like people like me who stick my neck out on opinions every single day.

edit:[redacted] > it's called a reputation tank

Eve is a beautiful place.  But beautiful like a jungle.  And because I am feeling poetic, "If you aren't a predator then you better pray"

Because that is all that is stopping you from getting eaten.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Maybe that's why the whole Caldari on Caldari bashing for a minute there was so entertaining.  Everyone suddenly found the ranks kind of broken and we suddenly got a flash of individuality out of everyone.  I was enjoying it!

I think an understanding internal factionalism is just as important as external politics. I'm not sure why people think the Caldari State is some sort of totalitarian system when I've always seen it as more in having in common with Hellenic Greece or Renaissance Italy -- they have a defined shared cultural concept of being Caldari that unites them against external forces but the Megacorps are just as competitive and fractious as any city-state.

Part of the reason I don't take the IGS all too seriously these days is that it seems people are so pre-occupied with this PR/Propaganda game where characters try to push the line that their faction has no internal problems at all, ever, that they sort of commit the crime of actually believing your own propaganda. Without internal divisions whether it's political, cultural, historical, ideological, or economic then there's no real diversity and depth to a faction and we might as well just variations of specific stereotypes -- which is how the IGS and posts there tend to come off for me.

I mean I never really see all the supposed different political and ideological differences the Federation is supposed to have as a democratic space mileu; or the vagaries of Amarrian feudalism and Imperial House loyalties; or the divisions between the clans and tribes of the Republic, just to name a few of the points of internal factionalism the PF points at. Part of it I think is either there's not enough people to build upon and flesh out those internal differences or that there's a preference to maintain a facade of unity to deny any flaws.

[Vic Van Meter]

Maybe that's why the whole Caldari on Caldari bashing for a minute there was so entertaining.  Everyone suddenly found the ranks kind of broken and we suddenly got a flash of individuality out of everyone.  I was enjoying it!

I think an understanding internal factionalism is just as important as external politics. I'm not sure why people think the Caldari State is some sort of totalitarian system when I've always seen it as more in having in common with Hellenic Greece or Renaissance Italy -- they have a defined shared cultural concept of being Caldari that unites them against external forces but the Megacorps are just as competitive and fractious as any city-state.

Part of the reason I don't take the IGS all too seriously these days is that it seems people are so pre-occupied with this PR/Propaganda game where characters try to push the line that their faction has no internal problems at all, ever, that they sort of commit the crime of actually believing your own propaganda. Without internal divisions whether it's political, cultural, historical, ideological, or economic then there's no real diversity and depth to a faction and we might as well just variations of specific stereotypes -- which is how the IGS and posts there tend to come off for me.

I mean I never really see all the supposed different political and ideological differences the Federation is supposed to have as a democratic space mileu; or the vagaries of Amarrian feudalism and Imperial House loyalties; or the divisions between the clans and tribes of the Republic, just to name a few of the points of internal factionalism the PF points at. Part of it I think is either there's not enough people to build upon and flesh out those internal differences or that there's a preference to maintain a facade of unity to deny any flaws.

It is sort of sad, in a way, how conservative people play it on the IGS.  I think that was what was fun about when I first showed up and started posting.  I was having fun shaking the Amarrian players and seeing what popped out.  It's a little bit like shaking a snow globe and seeing all the pretty colors blinking about.  Truth is that I didn't do it intentionally; I was just playing a concept character.  But suddenly, everyone had something to react to that wasn't forced.  People did everything from inviting me to chat channels and confirming Constantin's identity to questioning his legitimacy and throwing bounties on his head.

That's sort of the whole purpose and problem behind large, unorganized group RP.  It's like a dance floor.  Everyone wants to stand on the side, sipping drinks and nodding their heads.  Everyone knows dancing is a lot more fun, but nobody wants to be that guy who's dancing on his own.  What if he looks like an idiot and nobody comes dancing?  Truth is, people like to dance and they're looking for an excuse.

So, yeah, the IGS is a pretty toxic place, but I think that's because most people shake the snow globe by making a character to figuratively knock it off the table.  You don't have to try to generate controversy or animosity to get the party started, in fact you're usually going to stand out better by being friendly.  You just have to be ready to dance and not worry if everybody watching you is going to think you're so uncool.

Just remember that the life of the party is never that guy on the wall.

I mean, even when Veik was pretty much trolling Constantin, I had fun with your character.  He still thinks she's very amusing to poke with a stick every now and then.

[Arista Shahni]

I'll argue characture players are important to the EVE universe.  Not everyone has to have a 40 page background.  Some can be simply 'personalities' - many rather deep characters simply started off that way.  The lady behind he counter at the store at an RP event is a one dimensional character, the NPC Kammies and guards are one dimensional people.  "Realistic" or not - RP isnt realistic because -uhm. It isn't real.  IT's a game we play.  So due to that, these carariactures still lend atmosphere and need to be there.  They're set extras, and there are players who play a lot of characters who are more than happy to have many "extras" along with their mains.

The trick is, there is little to no way to tell if someone is wearing a one dimensional mask or if they are one dimensional unless you interact with them at great length - and I don't mean read their IGS posts at great length.  Specific factions are flat TRAINED to be near robotic and predictable in their actions -- in public.

As for shaking people's snowglobes for the sake of shaking them, Vic, players have long memories.  Especially Amarrians, who take notes.   Baraacca acts about 1000% different in person than on the IGS.  I haven't forgotten.  I didn't react at all to your posts on the IGS.  As a Kingdom clergywoman Arista had her own reasons to refrain.

Officially too lazy to respond to anymore of this.  This topic derailed awhile ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZlNNSjsELs