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That one of the primary exports of the Amarrian Theology Council is booze? (Theology Council in-game info, Market Activity tab).

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Author Topic: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?  (Read 9357 times)

Lyn Farel

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #30 on: 29 Oct 2013, 11:34 »

No, I won't get over it since it breaks my suspension of disbelief... It's as silly as expanding ammo. I don't see the point to come that confrontational. It's hard to solve and i'm not happy with both solutions.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #31 on: 29 Oct 2013, 11:46 »

More sensible solution:

For blasters, you're basically buying a one-size-fits-all package because you're shunting the plasma out of the container and firing that. Lasers are probably standardized as far as crystal use and only differ on the internal workings and power sources to differentiate between sub-sizes (not gonna lie though, it would make more sense for dual/quad lasers to require two or four crystals at once~). Missiles are definitely one-size-fits-a-launcher, since the only missiles you can use in multiple types of launchers basically have overpowered launchers designed around that specific missile type.

That leaves railguns and projectile weapons, with their explicit 'sizes'. When purchasing ammunition, most people know what weapons and ships they are making the purchases for. Perhaps there -are- differently-sized shells or charges within the S/M/L classification for the different guns, but it's simplified for inventory purposes, and you're just assumed to be handwaving the purchase of X 800mm Fusion shells and Y 1400mm Fusion shells, instead bundling it into a single lump purchase of X+Y Fusion L shells?

I mean, if I'm buying a stockpile of ammo for, say, my Tempest and Tornado, I'm going to buy a couple different types, but it'll all be "L". The Tempest needs 800mm rounds, and the Tornado needs 1400mm ones. I know roughly how many rounds I'm going to buy, but I also (in theory) know how much I use those two ships and which one is going to need more or less ammo than the other, so I can handwave the division of ammunition between 800mm and 1400mm to the background and just buy the whole lot.

Then later, when I'm using the ships, I'm obviously putting the correct shells into the right ships.

I think people may be overthinking things a little too much. :)
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Lyn Farel

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #32 on: 29 Oct 2013, 13:44 »

Maybe it's a full package. Such a waste though... And why when using my L ammo with my 1400mm then I don't have dual 425mm, 800mm and 1200mm left for another use ? They magically disappear with the whole package ?

Tbh I would really like for each weapon caliber to have its own ammo.

Not EMP S, M, L, but  125mm EMP, 150mm EMP, 200mm EMP, 220mm Vulcan EMP, 425mm EMP, 600mm EMP, 800mm EMP for ACs, and in the same fashion for artillery. How is that so obnoxious ? There is a lot, lot worse in Eve...
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #33 on: 29 Oct 2013, 15:47 »

That's why I came up with my previous post. Alternatively, one could be buying 'vouchers' for a given class of ammunition to be redeemed at a specific size at a later date. vOv

There are ways to work around it without making it unnecessarily complicated.
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Desiderya

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #34 on: 29 Oct 2013, 15:59 »

Whoop, whoop. And what would be gained by this increased complexity?
Maybe just handwave it and move on to bigger problems.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #35 on: 29 Oct 2013, 16:11 »

We could also make universal ammo that goes inside every gun you know. I don't understand your point... :/
« Last Edit: 29 Oct 2013, 17:06 by Lyn Farel »
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Vic Van Meter

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #36 on: 29 Oct 2013, 16:44 »

I'm not sure if someone's touched on this already, but it's not likely that Minmatar projectile ammunition resembles Earthbound projectile ammunition.  First of all, combustion requires oxygen and, since there isn't any in space, you'd have to pack the oxygen with it.  Odds are the expanding propulsion fuel of the round isn't an explosive as we'd know it.  Second, a very, very fast round usually scrapes 4,000 feet/sec (1,249 m/s) and that's a slim rifle round.  Step up to an M5 Browning heavy machine gun, and you have an exit velocity of about 2500 f/s (849 m/s).  As the caliber goes up, the speed of the round falls, as the propellant has to push more mass out of the way.  Once you're into heavy autocannon territory, and you're calculating your range in kilometers and speeds at 300 m/s, that means that even in space the rounds simply are going to go too slow to accurately predict.  Third, though caseless ammunition would be impossible with a conventional round (since you'd need to carry the gas with you), even cased ammunition doesn't make much sense because a bullet requires expansion to drive it out of the barrel.  Without a readily available gas, it's hard to get that kind of expansion.  The icon definitely shows the rounds as being cased (which would make sense), but it's hard to imagine that pumping out shells around your spindly ship inside the shield that stops enemy rounds from hitting you wouldn't interfere with your other systems.

We're sort of overthinking this, though.  Amarrian lasers obviously have some similarities to lasers we have on Earth, but we haven't developed frigate-sized lasers that can punch holes through metal from that far away.  They are likely somewhat similar in design, but are using very different technology than what we've developed.

I'd imagine that Minmatar projectile rounds are probably using a very different propellant to what we're used to and we can't really say whether it is caseless or not, but I would imagine that it wouldn't be ejecting anything.  I'd say it'd be easier to just keep to the basics, that Minmatar projectile weapons are probably using a very different propellant than what we use (plasma?) that consumes it and any casing it might have.  More than that, we'd have to assume that it carries all the elements that it needs to work in a vacuum with each individual round or that there's some kind of inexhaustible tank of propellant additive that sets a round off somewhere in the gun or ship.  We can also assume that the calibers are fixed in a few very sizes or that the round, if not a railgun, is at least using a magnetic coil to keep it centered in the barrel (which might make sense if the round is moving quickly enough to work in a range of kilometers, as this might eliminate wear on the barrel).  Still, it would make sense if the rounds were only a few fixed calibers meant to work in most guns.  After all, when you're in space in a ship, there's no problem with air resistance and relatively less issues with ammunition weight and storage.  Changing the size and shape of the round by a millimeter or so isn't going to make an awful lot of difference, so the idea of simply standardizing a set of bores tailored for how big a ship needs to be to fire a round without the recoil doing as much damage to the firing ship as the target would make sense.  The gun would probably make a lot more difference in space than the round, so unless you're making your own ammunition, I'd imagine even civilians with projectile weapons are probably using standard military calibers, U.N.O.

The guiding principle seems the same, though: getting a relatively small lump of metal moving quickly enough to punch through hardened armor and hopefully hit something vital.  That's really what's important.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #37 on: 29 Oct 2013, 17:16 »

So far, the versions in DUST don't seem to spew copper all over the landscape. This may just be a limitation of the engine, of course, but the rounds do seem to be caseless (and extremely compact-- magazine size for an SMG is frickin' enormous).
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Victoria Stecker

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #38 on: 29 Oct 2013, 18:22 »

I'm not sure if someone's touched on this already, but it's not likely that Minmatar projectile ammunition resembles Earthbound projectile ammunition.  First of all, combustion requires oxygen and, since there isn't any in space, you'd have to pack the oxygen with it.  Odds are the expanding propulsion fuel of the round isn't an explosive as we'd know it. 

Just a small nitpick, but we already pack the oxygen into bullet shells. Otherwise, the gunpowder wouldn't ignite in the first place to push the bullet.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #39 on: 29 Oct 2013, 19:14 »

Actually, oxidizer is typically contained inside the shell along with the propellant; this means that not only could a fixed shell be fired in the vacuum of space, but has been. The Soviets test-fired a 23mm automatic cannon aboard a manned spy satellite around 1974.
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Merdaneth

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #40 on: 30 Oct 2013, 01:52 »

This more or less confirms that autocannon shells, at least medium-sized, are cased. However, there's a few things that strikes me as odd. First, using carbon-fibers to yank out the shell? This seems oddly inefficient.

You guys always amaze me. The amount of thinking you put into such issues. Especially once you start referencing PF. Fact of the matter: most authors don't put this much thought into it, especially if they merely write a passage they are looking into making it sound cool.

In EVE, projectile weapons fire what you want them to fire, and discussing what you would think they would fire is an exercise in fun, not in fact-finding.  :)
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #41 on: 30 Oct 2013, 01:54 »

This more or less confirms that autocannon shells, at least medium-sized, are cased. However, there's a few things that strikes me as odd. First, using carbon-fibers to yank out the shell? This seems oddly inefficient.

You guys always amaze me. The amount of thinking you put into such issues. Especially once you start referencing PF. Fact of the matter: most authors don't put this much thought into it, especially if they merely write a passage they are looking into making it sound cool.

In EVE, projectile weapons fire what you want them to fire, and discussing what you would think they would fire is an exercise in fun, not in fact-finding.  :)

This is what happens when I get bored: I start thinking about fictional things.
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Desiderya

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #42 on: 30 Oct 2013, 03:21 »

We could also make universal ammo that goes inside every gun you know. I don't understand your point... :/
From a gameplay POV it makes no sense to increase the (already quite sizeable) number of different ammunitions just for the sake of increasing it. While I can understand where you're coming from I think there are a lot of bigger "flaws" around the whole ship fitting theme that attack your immersion. Personally I consider the fact that six different guns per tier share the same ammunition a slight detail. I'm much more amazed how quick ships can be assembled, modules can be changed from your frigate to a battleship ( and vice versa ), not just at all, but also instantly, or how fast a station repairs/recharges a ship when even top-tier modules take considerable time.

As for the ammunition 'problem'. I recall reading something in ye olde Jagged Alliance 2 handbook about professionals always having some spare clips at hand. In the game you don't just have different calibres but also different clip/clipsizes and can create spare clips out of thin air by instantly converting the 30 round AK47 clips into (three) of the 10 round SKS ones, for example.
When we're talking EVE I think it can be assumed that what is sold and bought in the shape of these calibres are maybe the warheads to be fitted into the appropriate round/combined with the charge just prior to the action and on board of your ship. There are still differences between a 1400mm artillery shell and a barrage of dual 425mm's, but this can be cured by more handwavium and the assumption that the '1' in the amount of charges used might not be a single item, but a certain amount of firepower - your gun installations can fit this into the appropriate amount and size of charge per volley. Volley? Because yes, there are some guns that are firing salvos and others that are multi-barreled, yet they still only take 1 charge per gun per activation.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #43 on: 30 Oct 2013, 04:53 »

I don't subscribe to that philosophy considering that since there is things more important somewhere, then it's pointless to discuss or adress the less important ones too.

I agree that it looks like increasing the number of ammo just for the sake of it, but my point was that Eve has always been like that for everything in its industry side. Just have a look at any production charter (especially PI, T2 or T3) and tell me again that the goal was to keep it simple. It's complicated for the sake of being complicated, and that's what gives it its flavour, and creates a lot of different items and production segments that can be filled so that there is a shitload of things to produce and the end result goes through a painful, long and complicated production chain.

Though this is T1 ofc, so overall very simple. Which means that the number of ammo is mostly an issue of combat gameplay (+ loot wise). I wouldnt mind to see that what I loot is not always automatically of the caliber I am using. I can understand the other school of thought wanting it to be more simple, but eventually, be it for production in eve in general or for gameplay, it's not always complicated for the sake of it.
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2013, 05:10 by Lyn Farel »
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Desiderya

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Re: Minmatar Projectile Weapons - Caseless or Conventional?
« Reply #44 on: 30 Oct 2013, 19:36 »

I don't subscribe to that philosophy either, which is why I've named a few examples that are pretty close to the topic and are, in my opinion, requiring more handwavium to be dealt with than the question of calibres, such as the extremely modular, well, modules. One size fits them all, within 5 seconds. If we have that kind of tech (handwaving the fitting time aspect) some kind of modular ammunition used by the turrets in different ways should not be too far off if you really take that much offense at being able to use that ammo you just took from a destroyed ship (that vaporized in an on/off fashion instantly - heyoooooo) on the fly.

But that aside: Are you sure what you are suggesting?
Because it is not just a minor addition to ease your personal headache, it is pure and unadorned ridiculousness. Let's look at Projectile weapons*, discounting X-Large.
You have 12 different types of ammo ( 8 basic + 4 tech 2 ) that will come in 5 different versions (3 AC, 2 Artillery) at 3 different tiers. This means 180 different blueprints and producable ammunition types. On top of that are 8*3 faction ammo types, bringing the head count to 180+360 = 540 different types of projectile ammo alone. Take that, hangar clutter.
No, I do not think even the user friendly industry processes of EVE come even close to that. ;)


*Hybrid is even worse: 216 'base' and 432 faction totalling in 648.
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2013, 19:40 by Desiderya »
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