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[Vic Van Meter]

The main reason I disagree with trying to preach to the Caldari is that it flies in the face of a lot of PF, and makes little sense given the highly controlled nature of Caldari corporate society.

1.)  Caldari are cultural purists.  This is their "thing".  Why in the world would they want other cultural influences, up to and including their allies?  They fought a war over that kinda thing.  After all, the Gallente used to be their allies too. 

From Caldari: Demographics

 The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion.  

The megacorps actively and methodically go to great lengths to insure cultural homogeneity.  Allowing a preacher from another culture hoping to break that homogeneity would literally make no sense.  Literally, one reason many Caldari players are reacting so poorly to this is that it directly contradicts the stated goals of the State itself, and therefor their characters' goals as well.

2.)  According to PF, Caldari corporate citizens are highly indoctrinated, and megacorporation control and Caldari enculturation is strictly monitored and enforced.

Again, from Caldari:demographics

 Where corporate control is weak and/or threatened by non-Caldari influences (such as colonial outposts in remote areas or space stations on major spacelanes), citizens are frequently rotated between locations, resulting in very few permanent residents in these places. 

Certainly, a preacher seeking to spread another religion, i.e. a non-Caldari influence, would certainly mean that the megacorps would rotate and isolate their citizens away from such things.  Otherwise, none of the above statements make any sense. 

How would you seek to limit non-Caldari influences, actively and aggressive seek to maintain a singular Caldari culture and identity, but allow foreign missionaries and preachers access to your population?  You cant really.  Hence, people having a problem with this storyline.

Like I said, I definitely have an explanation for that.  I thought everyone would have gotten it by now, but I'm not going to spoil it for everyone who didn't.  If you want the explanation, you'll have to contact me directly.  People from all cultures, not just the Caldari ones, who believe in their own cultural hegemony are supposed to initially wonder how the Hell he's doing this in their space.  It's really only a few people who've OOC really believed it couldn't happen, considering how religion has pretty much crept in and survived even in the most blatantly anti-theological historical examples.  That, and it isn't like religion is illegal in Caldari space.

If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one.  It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop.  Specifically a bishop.

[Vieve]

If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one.  It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop.  Specifically a bishop.

Diagonal moves are best moves.

[Morwen Lagann]

If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one.  It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop.  Specifically a bishop.

Diagonal moves are best moves.

Good to see I wasn't the only person who thought chess.

[Makkal]

If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one.  It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop.  Specifically a bishop.

I assume you know that not everyone is a Christian, and that many people who are Christian are in churches where there's no such thing as a 'bishop,' and the Amarr aren't space Christians so assuming that a bishop has the same status, abilities, and background you'd see in whatever sect of Christianity you're drawing from isn't something people are going to do.

To me, saying 'I am a bishop' is the same as saying 'I am a Lord;' it just indicates you have a title of authority. 

[Silas Vitalia]

Keep in mind some people might be only tangentially involved and might not be delving into this plotline or the behind-the-scenes mystery unravelling.   Maybe this gets discussed IC after it is over with the IGS or similar?  To people not involved they'll make their assumptions about what and what isn't possible, but you of course can't run your whole gameplay based on that.

My two cents finds the concept a bit dubious along the lines of Gotti's reasoning earlier, but I'll see how it turns out!

[Gottii]

Vic, as a player, saying "my character is a bishop, and thus can do x,y, or z" doesnt really mean much to me, since to my knowledge there isnt any real description of the Amarrian church or its ranking system to validate what a bishop is.  Right now, your character is trying to fly in the face of PF, and merely creating more player-created fluff as justification to go against PF is a rather circular argument. 

Im sorry, I really dont think you could create a preacher who sets up shop in the Caldari megacorps as realistic or valid given more PF and players (rather reasonable) interpretation of it.  Moreover, youre asking a bunch of people who have invested years of their life creating characters and world building to change because of a character idea that doesnt easily or coherently jive with PF.  You're going to get pushback on that. 

However.

If I may, I would like to humbly make a suggestion to your character that would
1.) make your character suddenly 100% compliant with PF
2.) only subtly change your theme, you would be able to preach to Caldari (basically)
3.) would explore and expand on PF in a way that no one else has (to my knowledge)
4.) would actually give you the chance to RP with the Caldari bloc in unique and interesting ways. 
5.) Literally makes a vast amount of "real life sense", would turn your character from "swimming upstream against PF" to "yeah, I could totally see that happening if EVE was real life"

Basically, its this.  Dont preach to the Caldari per se.  To the megacorp citizens.  They already have their religion, and their priests, and those priests are jealous and refuse to share their followers.  (i.e. meritocary, caldari cultural ideal, etc) They like their religion, they're the Chosen Ones as far as theyre concerned, and they really wouldnt want to hear about another way.

Preach to the Caldari "Non-entities".

From Caldari demographics

The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers. The non-entity caste are the disenfranchised individuals of the State, having lost absolutely everything (including their citizenship) due to their failure to keep up with what many call a social form of natural selection[9]. The State has the largest ratio of its population considered impoverished, although authorities do not account for these groups in census reports. As social inequality and poverty is morally justified according to Caldari meritocracy, the wider State is not held back by having to concern itself with taking care of what society dub as failures and effectively non-Caldari. Many are expected to undertake a form of ritual suicide rather than live in the shame and dishonor of being non-entity.

I mean, good lord, these people are dying for a new leader, a new way of life.  They're the poor, the desperate, the outcasts, the losers of the great Caldari rat race, and they would be desperate and eager to here about a new path, a new religion, a new cause that tells them they're the Children of God, not the dispossessed orphans of the Meritocracy.

Moreover, the megacorps wouldnt really care (at least right away) that you're preaching to people they dont consider as Caldari.  More PF:

Non-entities inhabit fringe communities outside of corporate-controlled territory within Caldari space. As rural areas on planets tend to be void of any corporate presence outside of automated facilities, non-entity communities can be found here. The Guristas frequently use these locations as a staging area for organized crime or military operations against the State. In other cases, entire worlds are inhabited by these non-entities. Because Caldari authorities do not consider non-entities to have any rights or protections, they will displace or otherwise eradicate communities deemed to be a threat to the order. Some of the Practical-leaning corporations may employ non-entities on a very minute wage in industries that are illegal or otherwise questionable.

Constantin would find vast communities, even entire worlds, basically removed from the highly regimented megacorp control.  Literally, in real life terms, these communities would be ripe for missionary work, and it would totally make sense that these communities would want 1.) a new religion and sense of identity and 2.) connections with a powerful and wealthy entity like the Empire. 

Suddenly, you're 100% compliant with PF, youre preaching to Caldari still (frankly, most players couldnt really tell you the difference), you've created a very plausible situation for religious conversion, created new RP opportunities, and suddenly have tons of room for unique world building.  The RP opportunities would be massive, and it would only be a slight tweak to your character as it stands.

I really hope you take up my suggestion, because I think everyone "wins".

[Arista Shahni]

vOv  IDK what a Bishop is capable of and I'm Amarr.

I made up my religious title and what it is capable of. (Witness Shahni is how to properly address her as clergy).

[Vic Van Meter]

Answering all this in no particular order, but starting with Gottii...

I'm not sure why you think I can't give a decent argument even if you haven't asked me or why any of this is exceptionally difficult to buy into.  Still, it's almost certain that's a segment of the population Constantin preaches to (as he's intimated, he's very concerned with disenfranchised people all over the cluster).  If you want to imagine that his entire congregation is made up of non-entities, then that's fine.  There's a perfectly easy way to reach the Caldari population that really doesn't seem that complicated and, considering there are quite a few Caldari players working through this stuff ICly, it's definitely not a unilateral problem.  If that's what you need to assume to squeeze it into your RP so that Constantin's ministry isn't shredding your character's reality for the State, then by all means just go with that.  It's not essentially important who specifically Constantin is reaching with the ministry, only that he's doing it and the way he's doing it.  I'm just worried that ministering to the non-entities is going to give Constantin a lot more political power than I really wanted him to have.  He's meant to integrate and operate in these societies, not begin carving a feifdom out of the cluster.  He's very, very obviously not an executive authority, he's a minister.  It might be easier to earn Caldari ire by essentially taking over their dredges and creating a loyal workforce out of them than by trying to work with the government so he didn't step on toes.  You guys are the experts, though, so if you want me to play that angle, I can.

As to Christian background, I'm not a Catholic and haven't been to church since I was six.  Considering they use the same ecclesiastical titles and New Latin sounding language, I'm not sure how "not Christian" we're supposed to make the Amarrian religion.  CCP didn't spawn it in a vacuum as original content.  Before I played an Amarrian priest of any kind, I looked over the Amarrian religion stuff as well as doing some background research on Catholic practice to back up my RP.  CCP doesn't give you a ton of details, so it's up to us to fill in the gaps.  I actually was trying to incorporate some East Orthodox into it, but I didn't think it would gel with the people already using Catholic titles and duties, like Gaven playing a cardinal.  I had to make sure he and others outranked me, but it was very important that Constantin is a bishop.  It's the same as us essentially figuring that a megacorporation works like a corporation here on earth.  We've got every indication that they do, they use the same titles so far, so it stands to reason that we can assume a CEO and board operate the same way than figuring that the CEO needs to consult the janitor just because we don't have that specific information.  If it's really bothering people that I'm filling in the holes with historical background rather than creating a completely idiosyncratic rank or job nobody would recognize, it might be best to know what information I am allowed to include and what I'm not.  We're obviously getting most of this stuff from real life and history if it's not spelled out, and a lot is not spelled out.

To fill everyone in on the basics if they're curious, bishops have some authority, but they're definitely not anywhere near being a duke or viscount.  You could make that case for an archbishop and definitely a cardinal, but I wouldn't usually figure that with a plain-jane bishop.  Despite being a cool-sounding title, they're essentially the first step of administrative authority above a church level.  All the higher senior functions, those you'd probably attribute to a marquis, are much higher order bishops.

If you're trying to match his rank up to a traditional feudal lordship, I suppose bishop translates best to baron.  He's really not very high on the ecclesiastical food chain, despite how stunningly huge his territory is.  For modern comparison, a bishop is nominally the authority over a diocese.  The entirety of the Catholic world is divided into a little over 2200 dioceses, averaging about 550,000 parishioners per diocese.  I figure that proportion pans out, but your church leader isn't a legal authority.  I've made sure Constantin truthfully assures people he isn't an executive authority.  There is a part of the Theology Council that handles that sort of thing, but I figured that a bishop can't overrule the Privy Council's purely legal representatives in the area.  I get the impression that they have a fairly limited executive role, centered wholly on heresy over regular crime.  Constantin isn't even that, he's a minister.  His role is purely ecclesiastical.

I hope that gives you a sense of scale and purpose.  I'm not an expert, but I can go over the ecclesiastical stuff I use as references.  In the interest of giving people some background, as Silas has rightly pointed out that some people might not be following along with all the bits, I've included some spoilers....
[spoiler]
Trust me, he's not walking into these places and demanding anything, as you've probably noted from his manner.  Even if he was Cardinal Constantin Baracca the other three empires don't owe him any kind of consideration, and he's outranked by cardinals by about seven or eight steps.  As he's enumerated, time and again, he largely succeeds as a foreign minister by being likable, affable, and cooperative with local governments.  He succeeds, but not by being confrontational or asserting his authority anywhere.  Obviously he absolutely cannot afford to be seen as a foreign government operative, especially where the Caldari are concerned.  Luckily, it's true on his part.  Constantin's family has more influence and he has members of his family in the Theology Council in MUCH higher areas, but he himself due to his position and mandate has little direct political influence back home.  He's on his own out there, a situation that isn't changing anytime soon.

Really, it's all a matter of scale.  Constantin is succeeding beyond his superiors' wildest dreams (or nightmares), but it isn't like he's commanding whole planets or even whole territories.  He might have a lot of followers based on force of personality, his tireless ministry, and his comparatively accommodating teaching style, but spread out across the other three empires entire populations, he's nowhere near a powerful enough political force to register in any one place.  His ministry is spread out across the cluster in little patches and sometimes single individuals who might be the only ones in their entire region who need an officiate of the faith.  Unlike a lot of other dioceses, most of Constantin's "diocese" is full of non-believers he is trying to convert, rather than being full of state-doctrinated parishioners.  He's got his work cut out for him.

Simply put, Constantin is a minor officiate who has probably the biggest diocese in terms of raw population (because with that many people, it's easy to get that many followers listening in) but almost nothing in terms of population density.  He actually really lacks rank and resources even not considering the vastness of space, and thus he has to sort of improvise, especially since the law isn't necessarily built to favor him in the space he ministers in.

The big question people should probably be asking is related to why the status quo stands.  If the Theology Council outright hated him and what he was doing, they'd recall him or replace him.  If they outright loved him and were ready to go full-force into his ministry, they'd promote him and give him more resources.  If they loved what he was doing and hated him, they'd install someone over his head.  But none of these things are happening.  Constantin's had to improvise a diocese out of this situation and continues to sort of fend for his flock without any further help coming from the Council itself.

So those are sort of the central mysteries.  If you want me to just tell you up front how he's pulling this off and how this relates to his superiors, send me an EVEmail.[/spoiler]

[Silas Vitalia]

It looks like you've obviously put quite a bit of thought into how this works and plays out, so like I said I'm looking to see how it all plays out.  I think I initially was picturing this person 'causing trouble' in the more traditional street-preacher sort of way, which yes would get squashed pretty fast in the State.  It sounds like you've been thinking quite a bit about all of this and will have some places to go with it.


Gotti did have an excellent suggestion, though, and one that makes a ton of sense to me.

Also any thought to 'preaching' only to the corporate leadership?  The sort of way that a lot of high-powered executives have 'guru's they all follow around?   

It would be quite an interesting thing to have an Amarr 'guru' as an advisor to some caldari executives. Maybe he writes a self-improvement book about the 'paths to success' like you see in all the bookstores and this one happens to have all suggestions that coincide with central tenants of Amarr faith

[Elmund Egivand]

It looks like you've obviously put quite a bit of thought into how this works and plays out, so like I said I'm looking to see how it all plays out.  I think I initially was picturing this person 'causing trouble' in the more traditional street-preacher sort of way, which yes would get squashed pretty fast in the State.  It sounds like you've been thinking quite a bit about all of this and will have some places to go with it.


Gotti did have an excellent suggestion, though, and one that makes a ton of sense to me.

Also any thought to 'preaching' only to the corporate leadership?  The sort of way that a lot of high-powered executives have 'guru's they all follow around?   

It would be quite an interesting thing to have an Amarr 'guru' as an advisor to some caldari executives. Maybe he writes a self-improvement book about the 'paths to success' like you see in all the bookstores and this one happens to have all suggestions that coincide with central tenants of Amarr faith

I can already see that happening.

[Samira Kernher]

I actually was trying to incorporate some East Orthodox into it, but I didn't think it would gel with the people already using Catholic titles and duties, like Gaven playing a cardinal.

You mean Graelyn, I think. Also, not everyone goes with the Catholic influences. There's room for multiple inspirations as the Empire is a big place.

[spoiler]
Really, it's all a matter of scale.  Constantin is succeeding beyond his superiors' wildest dreams (or nightmares), but it isn't like he's commanding whole planets or even whole territories.  He might have a lot of followers based on force of personality, his tireless ministry, and his comparatively accommodating teaching style, but spread out across the other three empires entire populations, he's nowhere near a powerful enough political force to register in any one place.  His ministry is spread out across the cluster in little patches and sometimes single individuals who might be the only ones in their entire region who need an officiate of the faith.  Unlike a lot of other dioceses, most of Constantin's "diocese" is full of non-believers he is trying to convert, rather than being full of state-doctrinated parishioners.  He's got his work cut out for him.

Simply put, Constantin is a minor officiate who has probably the biggest diocese in terms of raw population (because with that many people, it's easy to get that many followers listening in) but almost nothing in terms of population density.  He actually really lacks rank and resources even not considering the vastness of space, and thus he has to sort of improvise, especially since the law isn't necessarily built to favor him in the space he ministers in.

The big question people should probably be asking is related to why the status quo stands.  If the Theology Council outright hated him and what he was doing, they'd recall him or replace him.  If they outright loved him and were ready to go full-force into his ministry, they'd promote him and give him more resources.  If they loved what he was doing and hated him, they'd install someone over his head.  But none of these things are happening.  Constantin's had to improvise a diocese out of this situation and continues to sort of fend for his flock without any further help coming from the Council itself.[/spoiler]

Keep in mind that Constantin is not the only foreign minister. I've gotten the impression from your posts that you think what he's doing is a new and original thing, but it isn't.

Yonis seems to believe the carrot is more effective than the stick and has funded religious missions to every civilized empire...

... Yonis also pushes for an Empire that is cut off from outsiders, except for converts. This includes limiting trade, diplomacy, and military aggression, with the only Amarr traveling outside the Empire being limited to missionaries.

- Ardishapur Family, EVElopedia

Note that article supports the idea of missioning to the Caldari, as it says religious mission have been funded to EVERY civilized empire. It's all about -how- it is done.


Also, on another note, keep in mind that Constantin doesn't have to have any formal position in the Theology Council to be a bishop. The Theology Council is mainly an overhead arbitrator, mainly serving purpose as a religious supreme court, which isn't what I see Constantin doing. The various churches and clergy fall under their authority, but aren't really 'members' of it.

[Louella Dougans]

There are/were "Bishops" in the various Amarrian churches, at least in the past.

The Letters of Bishop Dalamaid are an ingame item.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I must say you have put a lot of thought into this, so take what follows as musing suggestions rather than massive criticism:

I think the more you can get away from the catholicism the better. There are catholic elements in Amarr, but I would not think that diocese style administration would be part of those elements.

One of the big problems with Catholic admin as a model is that it embraces a separation of church and state (to the point of trying to force kings to recognize that separation) and Amarr really does not even have the concept. So it seems unlikely to me that Amarr would have separate political and religious administrative districts as i cannot imagine a holder ceding that authority.

I really like the idea that some amarrians would try preaching to the masses of the caldari, but that wouldn't be a bishops spot by my read. An Abel Jerek type could do it, but I wouldn't expect a bishop to do so.

Silas' idea of trying a top down conversion seems more likely to me to be the main Amarrian approach for the Caldari. I really like the idea that Amarrians would concentrate on trying to convert the Caldari bigwigs first. That matches the pattern we see in other places like the nefantir.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Actually, I don't think that the catholic (and orthodox) administration embraces a seperation of state and church - quite the contrary (It only tried to force Kings to accept the 'seperation' in so far as the King has no authority over the church, not though vice versa. I'd argue that is also more a political move rather than an inherent Feature of how the catholic Administration works.), so much as simply having to exist in an environment where that seperation is a reality. The Vatican is goverbned by the same Administration and does not know a seperation of state and church (obviously) and the byzantine ecclasiastical hierarchy and Administration worked the same, without as much seperation as in feudal Europe at the same time (and even there the seperation wasn't as clear-cut as it is nowadays).

I also think that PF suggests that the hierarchy of the Amarr is similar enough to the catholic/orthodox model to apply the titles, which has - as has been pointed out - been done in the PF. There are few as highly organized religions around as orthodox/catholic Christianity and this hierarchical organization fits the Amarr Religion quite well, I think. (And I say that even though I see that this brings the danger of rampant 'space Catholicism', something I'm quite averse to )

I think Samira said something quite important: "Also, on another note, keep in mind that Constantin doesn't have to have any formal position in the Theology Council to be a bishop. The Theology Council is mainly an overhead arbitrator, mainly serving purpose as a religious supreme court, which isn't what I see Constantin doing. The various churches and clergy fall under their authority, but aren't really 'members' of it."

I'd guess that most people of the Cloth have Little to do with the TC, save for being members of a church that is accepted by the TC. There seems to be a main Church in the Empire, an "Amarr orthodox church" which pretty much is at the core of what is considered orthodox and probably has most Connections to the TC and has most influence on the TC rulings (e.g. through most TC officials stemming from the "Amarr orthodox church"). Then there are other TC approved churches (like the Ammatar church) and movements (like the Khanid ones), which in turn accept the primacy of the TC on doctrinal rulings. Here again, the Situation seems to me to be a lot like in the Catholic Situation, where the Catholic church is made up by the Roman Catholic Church and 22 to other autonomous particular churches. (It seems to me that the Amarrian Religion is quite similar in organization to the Catholic Church - where it differs quite sharply is in doctrine.)

So, to be a 'TC approved bishop' one wouldn't really need exdpress TC approval or be somehow directly associated with the TC, but merely Needs to be a Bishop of any of these TC approved churches.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Declaring to the king that he has no authority over the church is absolutely enforcing a separation. The entire concept of render unto caesar what is caesar's is a separation. Also the statement that the byzantine and vatican heirarchies worked the same is just flat out wrong.

I am not talking about a separation in the modern sense, the separation of church and state in the middle ages assumed that everyone was of the religion and guided by it. But it does represent a separation of authority. It was a claim by the church that the church had authority over itself.

I do not think Amarr has that claim at any point.

The byzantine world pre-1204 works a bit better for comparison, the church administration for the most part mirroring the secular nodes of administration. The emperor and his officials were able to meddle in church politics to a fairly large degree. But even there there is at least some idea that you can have a "Good emperor who was bad to the church."

I dont think Amarr has room for this. It seems likely to me that Amarr religious districts would follow administrative districts first, and I expect that the holders are extremely invested and controlling in the appointment of higher religious officials in their domains.

One interesting question this raises for me is whether you can even have a amarrian bishop active in an area not controlled by Amarr. It seems to me that a side effect of no church state separation is that the Amarrians would be somewhat leary of churches formed in areas not under Amarrian control. They definitely send missionaries, but it seems to me that the goal of those missionaries isn't so much bringing people into the church, but rather facilitating the region's future incorporation into the Amarrian state.