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[Caellach Marellus]

So I took my Kronos out to SiSi.

While I'm using a couple of T2 modules I intend to replace with Faction, and because the mirror is old I don't have T2 Blasters on this variant so I'm using crappy navy guns. I will say this.

1280.5 DPS on guns alone, at roughly 7km+36km range.

4,677.40 HP repaired on an 8.37 cycle.

Barely needing cap boosters due to the high resistances (78/75/78/59 using Bastion/DCII and a T2 EANM *this will be replaced) and massive amount of rep.


I fucking love this ship.

[Morwen Lagann]

This has suddenly dawned on me as to why the art department was slightly evasive when I asked if the Golem and Vargur were getting new models the same way he let slip the Kronos and Paladin were at Fanfest.

I know, right?

Been playing with them in PVP situations on Sisi, actually - they're pretty nasty.

And because of the EWAR immunity during bastion mode they're nigh-uncatchable without scrams. You basically have a 9-12 second window to lock them down in during the MJD spoolup, and even then they can just slap on bastion mode again to kill off the scrams at that point and make you try again.

The only things that are going to wreck one of these, it seems, is ridiculous amounts of alpha and/or lots of neuts to shut off the reps.

[Caellach Marellus]

A handful of Tornados will take them out with the Alpha.

[kalaratiri]

Iteration stuff, like, whatever.

Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:


Capacitor has been decreased from 8000 to 7500 on the Paladin.

Drone bay has been restored to 75m3 on the Paladin and Golem, 125m3 on the Kronos and 75m3 on the Vargur.

Max Velocity has been increased to 100m/s on the Paladin and Golem, 105 on the Kronos and 110 on the Vargur.

Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.

Shield HP has been increased from 6300 to 6900 on the Paladin, 8000 to 8800 on the Golem, 6600 to 7300 on the Kronos, 7500 to 8300 on the Vargur.

Armor HP has been increased from 8000 to 8800 on the Paladin, 6100 to 6700 on the Golem, 7200 to 7900 on the Kronos, 6600 to 7300 on the Vargur.

Hull HP has been increased from 7700 to 8500 on the Paladin, 7000 to 7700 on the Golem, 8600 to 9500 on the Kronos, 6300 to 6900 on the Vargur.


Why buffing those hulls?

As mentioned here and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.


Why restoring their drone bay to their original values, but keeping the nerfs to the bandwidth?

Mainly because those hulls are not supposed to use large drones, especially sentries in combat. They are supposed to use their main turrets / launchers, combined with Bastion mode to deliver damage, and use MJD to move around the battlefield. On those vessels, drones are limited to a support role, indicated by the low bandwidth. However, we have nothing against keeping a bit of flexibility by having high drone bays to allow replacement waves.


Why removing the web bonuses?

As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. When we gave them web bonuses we had to nerf them from 10% to 7.5% per level not to overstep on ships like the Vindicator, which by itself was a sign that we were trying to take over a role already fulfilled by the Pirate Battleships. Marauders are not supposed to fill the same niche than their Pirate counterpart, which led us to remove those web bonuses and revert back to iteration 1. Trying to hit orbiting NPC frigates at close range with those hulls is not a good idea either, just use your MJD and snipe them before they can come back in range. If you wish to hit close range targets, the Vindicator is much better for that purpose, as it is tailored for Blasters.


Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?

Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.


Why do those hulls have lower mass next to their tech I counterparts?

Having less mass help with max MWD velocity and align time. The first one partially helps to compensate the Max Velocity nerf (they're not as mobile than tech I, we estimate their top speed to be 10% slower with MWDs), the second one helps to make those hulls less vulnerable when coming out of bastion mode to align and warp out. Aligning is especially important for MJDs, and we estimated it was a good aspect to preserve.


Why buffing the EHP?

For being the epitome of tanking, they shouldn't have reduced EHP next to their tech I, Navy or Pirate counterpart. We wanted to avoid giving them full Tech II resists outside Basion Mode to avoid broad use in RR fleets, but we still felt the need to give them some buffer to help survivability as a whole. In practice, that means the Marauders now have 39-41k raw EHP, which compares favorably next to Navy Battleships (35-41k) or Pirate Battleships (34-41k).


Why nerfing the capacitor on the Paladin?

Combined with the Capacitor bonus it gets it was just too high before. It's not much of a nerf however, but it helps with the general balance of those hulls.


Why didn't you buff the fittings?

We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.


Why not moving a high-slot to med or low?

We feel like the extra high-slot to be needed to compensate for the use of the Bastion module - adding an extra med or low slot could make those hulls quite too much powerful in combat situations.


Why not adding damage to the Bastion mode?

Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs. It's all about trade-offs; if you wish more damaging hulls, then look for Pirate Battleships / Navy Battleships for that particular purpose, knowing full well you will pay for it in other areas.


Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?

We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.


What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?

The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.


Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.



Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread 

And also this other stuff. Maaaan.

Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???

Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post 

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
+ Target painting affects a whole group of players
- Require med slots in the first place

Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place
+ Always applied as long as you shoot
- Static, cannot be influenced by itself
- Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I am satisfied. This whole fiasco has been like a horrible first lay.

First, CCP walks into the room wearing some sexy lingerie, and I'm like "oooooo, damn that bastion thong looks hot"

But then they slowly peel it down, and it's like the Congo down there. Hair everywhere. Holy shit. Like Chewbacca just walked through a static field. Mood is totally ruined. I can't even look at it. I feel like my life is in question.

But then they get all sad and leave the room for a few months, and come back, and everything looks all sweet and sexy again, and they finally mowed the lawn, and there's a great bang.

And now I have a decent marauder. Or something.

I had a lot of sugar today.

[kalaratiri]

I am satisfied. This whole fiasco has been like a horrible first lay.

First, CCP walks into the room wearing some sexy lingerie, and I'm like "oooooo, damn that bastion thong looks hot"

But then they slowly peel it down, and it's like the Congo down there. Hair everywhere. Holy shit. Like Chewbacca just walked through a static field. Mood is totally ruined. I can't even look at it. I feel like my life is in question.

But then they get all sad and leave the room for a few months, and come back, and everything looks all sweet and sexy again, and they finally mowed the lawn, and there's a great bang.

And now I have a decent marauder. Or something.

I had a lot of sugar today.

YOU TOO HUH CATCATKAT? I'VE BEEN EATING IT FROM THOSE SMALL PACKETS YOU GET IN CAFES. GONNA GO PASS OUT IN A SKIP OR SOMETHING NOW. 

[Silas Vitalia]

I don't think I like these for PVP situations at all.

Any other ship you are going to spend more than $1 billion on is going to do a lot more damage and not have the mobility issue.  Bastion not increasing DPS is ridiculous?

I could see a gang of these being scary, but not nearly as much as a gang of Macharials or Bhaalgorns or Vindicators.


Am I missing something here or are these mostly set as mission runners?

 

[Katrina Oniseki]

I don't think I like these for PVP situations at all.
Any other ship you are going to spend more than $1 billion on is going to do a lot more damage and not have the mobility issue.  Bastion not increasing DPS is ridiculous?
I could see a gang of these being scary, but not nearly as much as a gang of Macharials or Bhaalgorns or Vindicators.
Am I missing something here or are these mostly set as mission runners?

I think you are, yes. You're assuming that an incredible active tank and lack of DPS/application bonuses must automatically mean mission runner. That is, frankly, a rather ignorant statement. It's not a DPS machine. It's not supposed to be one. It doesn't need to be one. CCP is introducing a new idea to the game, and we should be cheering them on - not demanding more of existing ship roles.

You cited 3 ships that you are more than welcome to use if DPS is your flavor. This is something new and different, and does not need to have a DPS bonus. I can't understand why people feel the need to shoehorn more DPS into a ship that is already borderline overpowered in tank.

The 'we want moar DPS' crowd should be satisfied with what they have already, or be open minded about trying something new. There is literally no reason why Marauders need to be DPS machines. CCP has made the right call by avoiding that sort of role overlap.

inb4 "needs DPS bonus to be good at PvP"

No, it doesn't. It needs either DPS or survivability. It has the latter in the form of an active tank. The Mach does not have incredible DPS, but it does have survivability. The Bhaalgorn does not have insane DPS, but it does have a crazy neut ability. The Widow does not have insane DPS, but it can jam you pretty damn swift. All of those examples can be destroyed if they are overwhelmed or countered properly.

Even the Vindicator's DPS doesn't count for much if it's overwhelmed.

Just like the Marauder.

[Caellach Marellus]

What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship 


Edit: Oh hey, turns out the Kronos has a 50mb bandwidth. Gogo medium drone flight!

[Katrina Oniseki]

What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship 

Enough hobgoblins to clear the room without firing a single shot of your main guns? xD

[Kasuko]

What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship 

We Have Reserves.

[Caellach Marellus]

What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship 

Enough hobgoblins to clear the room without firing a single shot of your main guns? xD

And 5 salvage drones.

I missed the change where the Kronos is now 50mb. 2x flight of 5 hobs, 5 salvage and 5 hammerheads.

Yes, because a ship that's using 4 125% bonused blasters, needs 5 medium drones on top.

Nom.

[Katrina Oniseki]

The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.

[Silas Vitalia]

Rebuttal

Needs DPS or Utility (neuts, jams, webs) to be very useful for pvp.  Overtank doesn't help all that much in group settings if more than a few ships in play.  If the overtank ship isn't being shot at its bonus is effectively useless. Utility ships and DPS are useful when they aren't being shot at.

Spending $1 billion + on a boat that's good at being shot at might not be particularly useful when that same money can buy you things that kill things faster.

It will be sexy bait ship, or overtanked 'please shoot me' distraction ship for pvp.  And an awesome mission and awesome incursion ship.

I like the MJD cool-off sniper applications, but not for that price. I think you can put a few snipeyapocs on field with MJD for the price of one of these?

[Caellach Marellus]

The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.

Dinsdale is crying endlessly about his loss of a web, apparently Marauders are forever useless without them and things will never be the same again.

That said, Marauders do get a damage bonus in this. The extension to optimal and falloff means you can hit your maximum damage at longer ranges, I'm getting rail like distances with blasters on a Kronos for example. Rail Kronos become supercharged snipers that can apply from a range beyond other people's optimal and comfortably soak up what hits it takes.