Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Lai Dai Infinity Systems is a capsuleer partner of the Lai Dai Corporation? Read more here

Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10

Author Topic: AXLVP Heist discussion thread  (Read 13813 times)

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #120 on: 04 Jul 2013, 10:23 »

And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.

You can be friends with someone you don't trust.

This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.

Same here. The concept is so alien to me that I can see where lies the misunderstanding.

In the same vein as Nico, trust is even more valuable when law is not enforced to make sure one does not risk anything from betrayal. Which  brings the question : why should I trust someone IRL more if he is not worth it ingame ? Because RL law makes it safer for me ? What does it tell of the principles of the individual ? Why would he act differently IRL if there was no law preventing it ? That's what's important to me.

Or because he considers it's somehow different in a game (where stuff actually correspond to RL time and money) ? Then ok, I guess, but I still think he forgot a few factors into the equation.

Call me a righteous asshole if you like, i'm probably one yes.
Logged

Mr. Smuggles

  • Clonejack
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #121 on: 04 Jul 2013, 11:06 »

You can be friends with someone you don't trust.

This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.

A friend is someone you like.  Generally speaking this will entail a greater amount of trust than Joe Blow off the street, but that doesn't mean it has to be a great deal.  I've met people that I've considered friends after only 3 days of getting to know them but that doesn't mean I'd trust them.

By the way, when I say "trust" I mean with something significant.  You could say I trust my friends in corp not to shoot me when I undock, but losing a single ship isn't going to ruin me if they did.  There is technically trust, but not enough for me to really call it that.  Now, loaning someone half your liquid ISK, that would be trust.  I have some friends I would trust to pay me back, and some that I wouldn't.  The ones that I wouldn't are generally more casual friends and corpmates.   So, I could say that you can be friends with people you don't trust much, because what's more important is that you like them.  Otherwise, why would you hang out with them?

And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.

I applaud your consistency at least, though I feel sad that you don't seem to understand what makes EVE so vastly different from the various crap out there.

Or because he considers it's somehow different in a game (where stuff actually correspond to RL time and money) ?

Ding ding ding!  And the winner is...!

Here's a hint: in taking the time to reply to my posts, I have taken your time and therefore money.  That guy who beat you when you were were about to win in snakes and ladders, he took your time and therefore money.  Your dear grandmother, when she eked out "xenophobia" on a triple work score in scrabble after a 4 hour slog?  Took your time and money.

Because time is money, every moment that you spend is money...or so people think.  The fact is, what you are paying for with EVE and investing time in is not the right to own virtual stuff, but for entertainment.  How is this different from other MMOs?  EVE lets you take other people's virtual stuff away.  Shooting, scamming, thievery, piracy, all of it goes.  That is something truly unique, and while you do not have to participate in it, it is a part of the game, and the universe itself.  Take measures against it, protect yourself, but should it happen to you anyways, laugh!  Enjoy!  That's what you're here for: to be part of a larger world that is at best apathetic to your existence and for the most part hostile.  The losses are what make the victories sweeter, because they remind you that victory is not guaranteed.  If you can't have fun when bad things you didn't want to happen to your character happen anyways, well...you have some maturing to do.

And if you get caught on the losing end of a heist...don't get mad.

Get even.  :yar:

Logged

hellgremlin

  • Pathological liar, do not believe
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 757
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #122 on: 04 Jul 2013, 11:13 »

And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.

Just for my looks, then?
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #123 on: 04 Jul 2013, 11:55 »

I've thought a lot about this issue over the years, and it's not as simple as some of this discussion seems to be trying to make it. My basic view was originally more or less in line with Smuggles, but I've softened that perspective with time.

As I see it, there's a continuum where gaming, friendship, and trust are concerned. Here are a few points off the chart, and my personal take on each.


Casual Board Games

Examples: "Revolution," "Unexploded Cow" (both excellent games, BTW)

These are quick-to-play games with minimal time and personal investment involved. Deception (of some sort) is a common explicit or implicit gameplay element. They are usually played among existing friends.

Personal approach: When playing these, I am an utterly ruthless motherfucker. I look for patterns and exploit them, unabashedly seizing any advantage I can get, and take a dim view of the idea that there is anything at all wrong with that.


Less-casual Board Games

Examples: "Battlestar Galactica," "Eclipse"

These games are typically very deep for board games, and a single game can dominate an evening. Again, this is usually played among close friends, family, etc.. Deception may be an explicit gameplay element, as in "BSG," (where the base structure of the game is cooperative but some players are secretly Cylons), but it's possible to approach it more ruthlessly or less. This is the level where "E-honor" first starts kicking in for some players-- unless deception is an explicit element, some people find it difficult to play "dishonorably."

Personal approach: I am, again, a ruthless bastard at games like this, though I understand those who prefer to honor their treaties, etc.. As a note, my reputation for ruthlessness in my circle of friends tends to make it hard for me to find allies, and often makes me the first to be suspected of being a Cylon even though the selection process for Cylons is random. (I end up feeling like Gaius Baltar whether I'm playing him or not.)


Pen and Paper ("PnP") RPGs

Examples: "Dungeons & Dragons," "Exalted," "Call of Cthulhu"

These are tabletop roleplaying games, usually with a time investment of hours weekly-to-monthly over a period of months or years. Play style is usually cooperative, and the use of "foils" within the gaming group (ala Belkar Bitterleaf, the Chaotic Evil halfling in the generally Good-aligned "Order of the Stick") is a tricky issue that has to be carefully watched. Character interests must usually align with the group; outright betrayal will often go over poorly. The game is usually played among pre-existing friends.

Personal approach: directly betraying your friends in this context can really get people upset; it's usually a tacit part of the game's "social contract" that the group ultimately works together despite differences in motive, philosophy, etc.. I've been experimenting with treacherous characters in this context without directly opposing, undermining, or destroying other characters' goals, and it's generally worked well, though my somewhat more conventionally-honorable housemate's grumbled, "Well played, you bastard," upon departure from more than one of our recent sessions has me thinking I may be walking a fine line on this.


Troupe Play

Examples: Live-Action Roleplay, especially Mind's Eye Theater "Vampire: the Masquerade," original "Neverwinter Nights" persistent worlds

These are larger roleplaying games typically involving no fewer than ten and no more than a few hundred players. Time commitment is similar to PnP RPGs. GMs can run storylines, and play can be cooperative, but most action actually comes from internal character-building, character interaction, and intrigue. As such, the intrigue is an expected component of gameplay; nobody is in a position to complain OOC when their character gets stabbed in the back by a friend. Indeed, most complaints in a game like this seem to relate to characters entering into unbalanced, unrealistic, and (especially) cheesy alliances based on the players' OOC friendships.

Of course, another problem comes in when someone can't separate the in-game backstabbing from OOC....

Personal approach: ah, sweet troupe play, how I miss thee! If you've never tried playing an evil character, this is the place to cut your teeth; especially in a game like live-action "Vampire: the Masquerade," nearly everybody's a predatory, scheming bastard. Much of the fun comes from watching various plots, schemes, and conspiracies interact. It's like having an evil ant farm. I eventually started playing honorable, principled characters in these just for variety's sake.

However, style must adapt to suit setting; not every troupe game is "Vampire," and in something like a NwN persistent world you need to be able to live alongside the good guys even if your idea of a nice morning is vivisecting puppies. This isn't a matter of OOC relations; it's a matter of being able to fit into the game's IC culture.


Fictional Universe

Examples: "Eve Online," other MMO's to a much, much lesser extent

Initial social context: arm's (or, rather, internet's) length.

Time commitment: it'll swallow every minute you throw at it and then demand more.

Facially, this is just troupe play on a massive scale. However, because of the depth of involvement needed to "build something" in game, once OOC social contact is made and an agreement to cooperate established (a necessary component in joining most corporations), the expected "social contract" shifts to more closely resemble PnP-- it's presumed that you're working towards the same, or at least compatible, goals. Even in a game as cutthroat as Eve, there is a degree of implied OOC trust in adopting a new member into a corporation.

Personal approach: I have long insisted on approaching this from a troupe-play perspective (what my character would do, I will do). However, in practice, no matter how hard I try not to form any OOC connections, they always end up existing, and people invest a lot of themselves, OOC, into their in-game projects (corporations, for example). It's very difficult to "do" intrigue without violating people's OOC trust. When Soter and I first set up The Synenose Accord, I even tried to explicitly set it up as a hotbed of intrigue (a sort of troupe game unto itself within the wider fictional universe). No such luck-- it ended up gravitating toward cooperative play rather than the backstabbing-cooperative I was aiming for.

Because of the implied OOC contract of cooperation and the time investment, I have ultimately concluded that those who betray their associates in Eve are in no position to complain if others take it personally OOC. It's like betraying the party in a PnP. People have put much of themselves into their projects, and expected you to have their backs; you should expect people to take it badly when you take "having their backs" to mean plunging a dagger between their shoulder blades.

However, because of the game's nature and especially the explicit allowance of such treachery, neither is it reasonable for third parties to draw harsh conclusions about the moral character of those who choose to engage in corp theft and similar shenanigans-- this is, after all, a game. We all knew its nature, and we've all known that there would be some who would choose to play off of our OOC implied contracts of cooperation rather than abiding by them. It's fair play, if not necessarily nice. I won't be hiring Smuggles, but I have no personal issue with his actions-- they're part of the reason I play this game.

For my own part, I really hate letting people down, so I play honorably vis-a-vis people who have formed an implied OOC contract with me. However, I have no problem with shooting people who have no OOC reason to trust me to begin with (as is the case among friends playing a board game). Hence the piracy and my taste for underhanded tactics in DUST.
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2013, 12:15 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Ché Biko

  • Space Buddho-Commu-Nihilist
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1166
  • I'll face the stars or the abyss.
    • Biko's Backstage Character Thread
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #124 on: 04 Jul 2013, 12:16 »

[..]your OOC decision to do the theft (which is actually kind of a prerequisite for your char doing it).
[..]
EVE is a game, and if you piss into the pool where the people play, don't be surprised they don't want you in their pool anymore - and maybe tell the others that you're a pool-pisser.
That depends actually. With Ché I'm pretty much a method actor now. Heck, sometimes I even dream like him, or as him.
Also, if making friends and building social intricacies on the internet is part of the fantasy world for you, and so, hold no value and can be broken like a sand castle at the slightest of your whims, and is somehow different from IRL relationships,
[..]
Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so.
[..]
Also, I would like to understand how something like that happening can only bear IC causes and consequences.
[..]why should I trust someone IRL more if he is not worth it ingame? [..] Why would he act differently IRL if there was no law preventing it ?
I kinda thought pissing in the pool was part how the game is played.
EVE, to me, is a fantasy world where my imaginary character has imaginary friendships and imaginary enemies. Outside of this forum, I don't have a lot of OOC interaction, and therefor these relations remain IC/fantasy, and are thus not as valuable/important as IRL friendships.
If you play a game by the rules, it's ok. If I take your cash in a fair game of poker, it should be ok, and you should not assume that I would steal from your wallet. If someone plays a character that is a murderer does not mean he is one IRL. The same applies to when I take away your queen in a game of chess, or some of your space pixels in EVE. Wether I do this by blowing it up or stealing it makes no difference in my eyes (in EVE, not chess).
If a heist/infiltration is done purely on IC trust, I see no reason why it should have OOC consequences. I see I may be a bit inexperienced in thinking this can be done, however, if Aria's stuff about OOC contracts is true.
Logged
-OOChé

Mr. Smuggles

  • Clonejack
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #125 on: 04 Jul 2013, 12:30 »

Because of the implied OOC contract of cooperation and the time investment, I have ultimately concluded that those who betray their associates in Eve are in no position to complain if others take it personally OOC. It's like betraying the party in a PnP. People have put much of themselves into their projects, and expected you to have their backs; you should expect people to take it badly when you take "having their backs" to mean plunging a dagger between their shoulder blades.

The problem is, if it could be totally IC, that's the way I would do it.  If when I signed on with a corp, I could go "By the way, this guy is an agent for [rival corp/faction] and will clean out your shit at the first available opportunity" and they would go "You're welcome to try, good luck" and immediately forget about it, so that no OOC knowledge was put to use in foiling my character's plans, I'd be all for that.  But we all know that will never happen, people will use OOC info to foil any plots. That's just the truth of the matter, and who can blame them?  But at the same time, realize that the reason OOC trust has to be broken is because whoever is doing the theft can't trust the corp not to utilize OOC info to "win."  That's why you can't let OOC trust in a game be the defining point of your friendship: in a game where people are roleplaying detached posthuman immortals, chances are some of them are going to do unpleasant IC things to you, and will avoid handing you the OOC info needed to stop them.

It's fine to trust in EVE, but every theft happened because someone was careless, or trusted too easily in an environment where trust is a commodity.  Just look at Chribba.

However, because of the game's nature and especially the explicit allowance of such treachery, neither is it reasonable for third parties to draw harsh conclusions about the moral character of those who choose to engage in corp theft and similar shenanigans-- this is, after all, a game. We all knew its nature, and we've all known that there would be some who would choose to play off of our OOC implied contracts of cooperation rather than abiding by them. It's fair play, if not necessarily nice. I won't be hiring Smuggles, but I have no personal issue with his actions-- they're part of the reason I play this game.

I think the fair vs. nice is what's causing the issue here.  People think that because you have a positive OOC relationship with someone, that means your character has to be nice to theirs and vice versa.  That can be true 9 times out of 10, but you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get caught off guard by the 10th guy, because it's fair for the character to have a grudge against you, even if the player doesn't.
Logged

Streya

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #126 on: 04 Jul 2013, 12:37 »

I still talk to Bai'xao in a perfectly friendly manner OOC, and even to Olm, the IC 'mastermind' behind the hoist, and I'd still be willing to have have a drink with them irl.

They'd best be buying!  :yar:



One question:  would you let Bai'xao/Olm (not any of the heist involved characters, ofc) in your corp, with no roles?

As co-CEO, I would personally say "No" simply due to the lack of an actual private ship maintenance array. CCP really needs to get on that. Once POSes becomes as thief-proof as kspace stations I'll be happy and not nearly as paranoid of people running off with the odd faction battleship here and there. Of course, Saede is CEO and has full rights to disagree with me.


It's fine to trust in EVE, but every theft happened because someone was careless, or trusted too easily in an environment where trust is a commodity.  Just look at Chribba.

I'm not sure it's always because a party was careless. At times security really is just limited by poor mechanics or game design. Trust is a big part of it though, I agree.
Logged

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #127 on: 04 Jul 2013, 12:40 »

You can be friends with someone you don't trust.

This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.

A friend is someone you like.  Generally speaking this will entail a greater amount of trust than Joe Blow off the street, but that doesn't mean it has to be a great deal.  I've met people that I've considered friends after only 3 days of getting to know them but that doesn't mean I'd trust them.

By the way, when I say "trust" I mean with something significant.  You could say I trust my friends in corp not to shoot me when I undock, but losing a single ship isn't going to ruin me if they did.  There is technically trust, but not enough for me to really call it that.  Now, loaning someone half your liquid ISK, that would be trust.  I have some friends I would trust to pay me back, and some that I wouldn't.  The ones that I wouldn't are generally more casual friends and corpmates.   So, I could say that you can be friends with people you don't trust much, because what's more important is that you like them.  Otherwise, why would you hang out with them?

That's a buddy, a disposable pal, a "friend" of the moment. That's probably the best attitude to have when playing Eve I think, though, as I said somewhere above.

Because time is money, every moment that you spend is money...or so people think.  The fact is, what you are paying for with EVE and investing time in is not the right to own virtual stuff, but for entertainment.  How is this different from other MMOs?  EVE lets you take other people's virtual stuff away.  Shooting, scamming, thievery, piracy, all of it goes.  That is something truly unique, and while you do not have to participate in it, it is a part of the game, and the universe itself.  Take measures against it, protect yourself, but should it happen to you anyways, laugh!  Enjoy!  That's what you're here for: to be part of a larger world that is at best apathetic to your existence and for the most part hostile.  The losses are what make the victories sweeter, because they remind you that victory is not guaranteed.  If you can't have fun when bad things you didn't want to happen to your character happen anyways, well...you have some maturing to do.

And if you get caught on the losing end of a heist...don't get mad.

Get even.  :yar:



Thank you for explaining me Eve. Really.

I am kind of amazed that you are able to define for me what is entertainment and what is or should be fun for me !

I do not see the point to continue further in barely veiled snipes and "learn to play" shenanigans though.
Logged

Hamish Grayson

  • Guest
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #128 on: 04 Jul 2013, 12:49 »

And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.

Just for my looks, then?

Don't forget literary talent.
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #129 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:02 »

It's fine to trust in EVE, but every theft happened because someone was careless, or trusted too easily in an environment where trust is a commodity.  Just look at Chribba.

... you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get caught off guard by the 10th guy, because it's fair for the character to have a grudge against you, even if the player doesn't.

This is comparable to the pirate justification that they're teaching their victims to be more paranoid in a game where paranoia is well-advised: not wholly wrong, but too damned easy-- and, more to the point, engaging in the wrong debate.

There's a maxim that any entity with 40+ players has at least one spy. Practically speaking, security WILL be breached; it's just a question of when and to what level. When the heist happens, your victim WILL feel betrayed OOC. If you hit an exception, great, but that's an exception, not an example of doing it right.

The question is not whose fault it is or even really who is justified in feeling what about what. The question-- and the debate-- is ultimately whether you've been playing your roles appropriately.

My position on the matter is that being a corp thief is a bit like being a pirate, only taken to a more personal level. I'm not willing to take it there, but you're badly positioned to claim that your victims are being unreasonable if they feel betrayed, or even that it's really their own fault for not recognizing you as a traitor ahead of time.

You betrayed them. You profited. They lost. Their anger is just a part of what you bargained for.

This is a fair move you made in a game. Why would you want to avoid taking the full credit for what you did?

You can be blamed. You should be blamed. The blame is the chorus of groans received by an especially horrid punster.

Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2013, 13:06 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #130 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:11 »

I do agree with a lot of what Aria wrote in his quite good post. Oftentimes, though, I think one should write OOG rather than OOC: In many corporations there is not only an OOC contract of corporation at least tacitly at work, but an OOG contract of cooperation: Just like in the PnP realm, where OOC usually means OOG. OOC and OOG are two things in a game like EVE, though. And mostly the roleplaying IC and OOC don't play as much a role as we RPers would like to make believe ourselves to. The basic distinction is OOG vs IG, wich IC vs OOC being a possible distinction in the IG category.

If a corporation is founded on an implied OOG contract of cooperation, thieving from the corp is not unlike going around with the rubber, erasing the items from the inventory of your mates' characters and adding it to your own and then killing the party with your wizards 'staff of doom' you acquired by doing so.

Also, let's not buy into the illusion that EVE can be unilaterally played entirely IC. If you join a corp that doesn't do everything ICly, and most don't one way or another, for fleet coordination reasons at least, there is OOC interaction involved as well as OOC trust and in most corporations OOG trust. PIE makes that OOG contract quite explicit, in other corps it's less explicit. But most corporations are based of an OOG contract of mutual cooperation and you're let in on the basis of your (tacit) agreement with that contract.

There are some corporations which are not based on this, but I think in the end they are in the minority.

Of course the game does explicitly allow for treachery like corp theft and such shenanigans. So, from an IG perspective corp theft is fair play. But that's exactly why so many corporations are formed on an OOG contract. That makes corp theft different from shooting ships in a war, even after asking someone in game if he would and he told you in game that he wouldn't: No out of game contract was entered into, no out of game trust involved.

So, I don't think it's a fair vs. nice issue. It's an issue of OOG vs IG. I think most people who have no problem with corp theft play the game without awareness of the OOG contracts involved. And when they did the act they often say: "Hey, this has been all in game!" For them, there never was any OOG trust involved. The understanding that there was, implicitly, an OOG contract of corporation on which the majority in the corp depended - just like in a PnP game, where you make clear that the group works together before you play the game and as well, mostly implicitly - never existed. To find that out can be quite a sobering experience.

Now of course that, too, is part of EVE and CCP does say so. In the end one will realize that no trust was broken, but that the trust, on which one depended, never existed in the first place - merely the illusion of an OOG contract and trust. Making explicit that an OOG contract is involved can help here, but there are people who will just ignore it. It's EVE after all.

Also, for me at least, friendship is not merely about liking someone. What friendship is, is dependent on cultural background and personal preference. In Germany, though, someone isn't a friend if you can't trust him and with trust I mean I can trust the person with my life. In EVE terms, if I can't trust the person with my login data, he or she isn't truely a friend. I've come to accept though, that in the interwebs at large, everyone has 164 'friends' on facebook, at least. Still, even making concessions in that regard, I don't call people I know from EVE friends if there isn't at least some basic OOG trust involved. Considering someone a friends after 3 days is quite alien to me. The idea that what's more importnant in a friendship than trust is some 3 day sympathy is equally alien to me.
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2013, 13:19 by Nicoletta Mithra »
Logged

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #131 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:17 »

You betrayed them. You profited. They lost. Their anger is just a part of what you bargained for.

This is a fair move you made in a game. Why would you want to avoid taking the full credit for what you did?

You can be blamed. You should be blamed. The blame is the chorus of groans received by an especially horrid punster.

Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.

So much this!
Logged

Ché Biko

  • Space Buddho-Commu-Nihilist
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1166
  • I'll face the stars or the abyss.
    • Biko's Backstage Character Thread
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #132 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:19 »

The problem is, if it could be totally IC, that's the way I would do it.  If when I signed on with a corp, I could go "By the way, this guy is an agent for [rival corp/faction] and will clean out your shit at the first available opportunity" and they would go "You're welcome to try, good luck" and immediately forget about it, so that no OOC knowledge was put to use in foiling my character's plans, I'd be all for that.
Yeah, that's another thing, if RP corporations rely on OOC/OOG trust for security, thus placing security in the OOC/OOG domain, then they kind of "force" players with spy/thief characters to break OOC trust, as they then have to default to standard OOC/OOG EVE infiltration mechanics in order to infiltrate.
So if you place corp security in the OOC/OOG domain, don't be surprised if OOC/OOG trust gets broken.

If someone were to join my corp, I think I would keep the security scan mostly IC, like if I asked for the API, I would not audit the entire account, but just the char applying.
Logged
-OOChé

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #133 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:23 »

Yeah, that's another thing, if RP corporations rely on OOC/OOG trust for security, thus placing security in the OOC/OOG domain, then they kind of "force" players with spy/thief characters to break OOC trust, as they then have to default to standard OOC/OOG EVE infiltration mechanics in order to infiltrate.
So if you push corp security in the OOC/OOG domain, don't be surprised if OOC/OOG trust gets broken.

If someone were to join my corp, I think I would keep the security scan mostly IC, like if I asked for the API, I would not audit the entire account, but just the char applying.

I think few corps are surprised if OOC/OOG trust gets broken in EVE. But honestly, asking for the API is already OOC. It's using a game mechanic. You can't really not look at the other characters on that account. And after all is said and done: No one forces you to break OOC/OOG trust. It's always your decision whether you want to do so or not and you should make that decision based on your knowledge what you do. vOv

P.S.: I wouldn't say that corps rely on OOC/OOG trust for security, really. It's a matter of managing your game environment, rather than a security question.
P.P.S.: That simply true because everyone knows how bad trust is as a security measure. If anything, trust is counterproductive in that regard.
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2013, 13:28 by Nicoletta Mithra »
Logged

Makkal

  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 837
  • Khanid victor
    • At the End of Your Journey
Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #134 on: 04 Jul 2013, 13:27 »

I treat the API as an in-character element. There's no reason why my character can't have a personal database that she gives another character access to.

After all, it can be limited to only one character on the account.

Yes, a full API is irreconcilable with IC elements.

Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.

There are players who deliberately milk others for tears. If you're not one of them, you're not one of them. The idea that you ought to enjoy another's anger isn't one I agree with though I do believe you ought to expect another's anger.
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2013, 13:31 by Makkal »
Logged
Ask not the sparrow how the eagle soars!

Current Events
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10