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[Shiori]

Don't fuck and try to cut people at the same time, anyway, it's bound to end in tears.

Unless you're into that.

It depends a lot on how you interpret "fucking," granted. I wouldn't recommend handling sharp objects while there's any hip-thrusting or similar motion going on, is all.

[Mr. Smuggles]

So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?

I'm like everyone else, I suspect. I respect your right to roleplay the way you want to - but if you or an alt of yours steals from me or one of my circle I will fucking CUT you. This is because ingame assets have a realworld value - even if it's only time spent.

I imagine that Ghandi might be able to firewall douchebaggery and dickishness on an IC / OOC basis, but most of us are just not that evolved. As Vinnie said, don't shit where you eat.

So, let's say I was in an RP-based CONCORD war with you, and you were about to jump through a gate, and you ask me OOCly in a private convo if I'm waiting on the other side of that gate.  I say no, you jump, and I destroy your ship because I actually WAS waiting there.

Are you "going to fucking cut me" for destroying your precious space pixels with monetary value? For betraying your OOC trust?  Or are you going to realize that enemies in EVE screw each other over any which way they can and taking that personally is a one-way ticket to ulcerville?

[Desiderya]

Smuggles, I don't see why wanting to cut you for that is bad. If someone kills me I usually try to give the favor back, because there ain't no fun like vengeance. Being butthurt over OOC lying depends entirely on how deep the trust between the two parties was. If someone I consider to be a friend or worthy of my trust pulls that one there will be consequences. Needless to say your exmaple with the rp war is a bit meh, because when in a war, you have to expect anything. Still - depends entirely how much trust there seemingly was.

What's the original point of this part of the discussion was something else, imo, and this was using the old "But it was RP!" excuse for thievery, griefing and general asshattery. If you break someone's OOC trust you've broken someone's OOC trust. Doesn't matter whether part of the motivation was IC or not, you still chose deliberately to fuck someone over. EVE's a game where this is a big part of its culture, but looks like we're back at what I initially says: Depends how much ooc trust there seemingly was in the first place.

[Mr. Smuggles]

Smuggles, I don't see why wanting to cut you for that is bad. If someone kills me I usually try to give the favor back, because there ain't no fun like vengeance. Being butthurt over OOC lying depends entirely on how deep the trust between the two parties was. If someone I consider to be a friend or worthy of my trust pulls that one there will be consequences. Needless to say your exmaple with the rp war is a bit meh, because when in a war, you have to expect anything. Still - depends entirely how much trust there seemingly was.

What's the original point of this part of the discussion was something else, imo, and this was using the old "But it was RP!" excuse for thievery, griefing and general asshattery. If you break someone's OOC trust you've broken someone's OOC trust. Doesn't matter whether part of the motivation was IC or not, you still chose deliberately to fuck someone over. EVE's a game where this is a big part of its culture, but looks like we're back at what I initially says: Depends how much ooc trust there seemingly was in the first place.

First off, the implication is that he'd want to cut you in real life.  I made it quite clear that I have no problem with IC reactions to such things.  But Pieter made it equally clear that he cannot separate fantasy from reality and would, in fact, hold negative OOC feelings for IC actions.  That's not very healthy.

Second, since Pieter made it clear that he believes in "RPer samurai ehonoure", I assumed that OOC trust was in place in the RP war example, because why would RPers lie to each other, right?  I so want to play a game of Diplomacy with him right now, or just WATCH him play one and lose all his friends because they LIED to him about their intentions in a GAME, how dast they?!

If you're specially dicking someone over for OOC reasons, sure, that's a dick move.  On the other hand, if someone is acting according to their character (personal revenge, political intrigue, hired thief) then you have as much leeway to whine about a theft as you do losing your ship in that fight.  OOC trust is for OOC things.  Ingame, I'm not going to tip off any plots I have going just because you fucking asked nicely.  EVE is a game and life is real, keep that in perspective the next time you go apeshit because someone threatened your precious space pixels.

Needless to say your exmaple with the rp war is a bit meh, because when in a war, you have to expect anything.

If you have enemies, you're at war.  And they may fight that war in ways you don't see coming.  You may not even know you're AT war, because not all wars are declared by CONCORD.  That's what makes this game so fucking awesome: you can actually fight a shadow war.

And if some people have a problem with that, they need to make sure to post their tears on the Summit.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

First off, the implication is that he'd want to cut you in real life.  I made it quite clear that I have no problem with IC reactions to such things.  But Pieter made it equally clear that he cannot separate fantasy from reality and would, in fact, hold negative OOC feelings for IC actions.  That's not very healthy.

No, he said that he does seperate OOC from IC and that when you do corp theft he doesn't condemn you for the IC motivations of your char, but for your OOC decision to do the theft (which is actually kind of a prerequisite for your char doing it).

Second, since Pieter made it clear that he believes in "RPer samurai ehonoure", I assumed that OOC trust was in place in the RP war example, because why would RPers lie to each other, right?  I so want to play a game of Diplomacy with him right now, or just WATCH him play one and lose all his friends because they LIED to him about their intentions in a GAME, how dast they?!

Again, no. Pieter just said that if you break his OOC trust, you have to live with the consequences. Those consequences are probably different when you shoot his ships, play a game of diplomacy or do pull a corp theft on him.

If you're specially dicking someone over for OOC reasons, sure, that's a dick move.  On the other hand, if someone is acting according to their character (personal revenge, political intrigue, hired thief) then you have as much leeway to whine about a theft as you do losing your ship in that fight.  OOC trust is for OOC things.  Ingame, I'm not going to tip off any plots I have going just because you fucking asked nicely.  EVE is a game and life is real, keep that in perspective the next time you go apeshit because someone threatened your precious space pixels.

I didn't see that Pieter said he'd wine: He said there'd be harsh consequences for someone who pulled thievery shenanigans on him. EVE is a game, and if you piss into the pool where the people play, don't be surprised they don't want you in their pool anymore - and maybe tell the others that you're a pool-pisser.

If you have enemies, you're at war.  And they may fight that war in ways you don't see coming.  You may not even know you're AT war, because not all wars are declared by CONCORD.  That's what makes this game so fucking awesome: you can actually fight a shadow war.

And if some people have a problem with that, they need to make sure to post their tears on the Summit.

And apparently if you fight a 'shadow war' in certain ways you'll get an in game shitstorm down on you. That's the price you pay for thinking it's fun to piss in the other people's pool. If you can't live with the consequences, that's your problem, not Pieter's.

[Lyn Farel]

If you have been in his corp for mounths and best buddies forever since then, I bet the reaction would be pretty similar, be it pvp loss or theft loss.

Also, if making friends and building social intricacies on the internet is part of the fantasy world for you, and so, hold no value and can be broken like a sand castle at the slightest of your whims, and is somehow different from IRL relationships, then I am afraid that I would have the same feelings at a gut level.

That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL. Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so. That's the kind of things that reminds me why we have laws IRL, since apparently, it's quite needed.

Also, I would like to understand how something like that happening can only bear IC causes and consequences.

[Mr. Smuggles]

That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL.

I like how your first sentence says my view is not healthy, and then the second establishes that you, too, cannot distinguish reality from fantasy.

If this happened to me?  I'd laugh, and congratulate my friend on a job well done.  Because he's still my friend, OOC.  Would I give him roles again, of course not.  But hate him for it?  For stealing fictional property?

Again, it's all in the spirit of the heist.  If it's some douchebag doing it to specifically ruin your game...well, actually, the best thing you can do in that case, too, is to laugh it off and deny them tears.  But if it's completely motivated by IC objectives, then yeah I can still be OOC friends with that guy.  This is because I can distinguish between my character, who has the space pixels, and me, who has the fun.  Character, me.  Fantasy, reality.  If someone betrays me in fantasy, I don't hate them in reality.

An IC hiest should not mean the end of an OOC friendship.  It's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention in this particular one.  But if the losing party isn't able to separate themselves from their character enough to step back and say "Hah, well played" then too bad for them.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

An IC hiest should not mean the end of an OOC friendship.  It's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention in this particular one.  But if the losing party isn't able to separate themselves from their character enough to step back and say "Hah, well played" then too bad for them.

Well, that's your opinion and that's okay. But who are you to dictate to other people their standards for friendship? It's not a matter of IC/OOC seperation, but of OOC trust that's given. If handing out roles to people is an OOC rather than an IC decision and that's made clear when it is, there is clearly OOC trust broken if people misuse their roles for thievery.

[Saede Riordan]

That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL. Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so. That's the kind of things that reminds me why we have laws IRL, since apparently, it's quite needed.

I don't necessarily find this view correct though, because by and large, despite CCPs encouragement, and a theft to stir up discontent, I still have 20 people in my corp, and people still trust me to make decisions. For every person there ready to try and stab you in the back, there's 10 who will jump in front of the dagger for you, and I think that has been the real strength through all of this. Just because you can burn bridges doesn't mean you can't also build them, and I have. My current flatmate, I met through EVE, most of my closest, most longtime friends are people I know ingame, met ingame, or are other EVE players. I still talk to Bai'xao in a perfectly friendly manner OOC, and even to Olm, the IC 'mastermind' behind the hoist, and I'd still be willing to have have a drink with them irl.

Of course, I'm also willing to burn their corporation to the ground.

I think that while its important to main an IC/OOC divide, its equally if not more important to maintain an ingame/IRL divide. Its the far side of that second divide that leads to things like, people killing each other over Everquest II.

[Mr. Smuggles]

An IC hiest should not mean the end of an OOC friendship.  It's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention in this particular one.  But if the losing party isn't able to separate themselves from their character enough to step back and say "Hah, well played" then too bad for them.

Well, that's your opinion and that's okay. But who are you to dictate to other people their standards for friendship? It's not a matter of IC/OOC seperation, but of OOC trust that's given. If handing out roles to people is an OOC rather than an IC decision and that's made clear when it is, there is clearly OOC trust broken if people misuse their roles for thievery.

Let me put it this way: people have the right to play (and pick friends) in whatever manner they choose.  And I have the right to laugh at them for it.

Choosing who to trust with roles is not unlike choosing how to fit and fly your ship. if you make shit choices, you're going to lose your stuff.  Railing at the person who relieved you of said stuff is immature. They're just taking advantage of your own oversight.  In real life, it would be a crime.  But it's not real life, and is in fact a game.  What was lost was not necessary to your continued well-being, or shouldn't be.  If it is, consider a different MMO. That's being serious, you're setting yourself up for pain otherwise.

It's fine to not trust someone OOC.  You can be friends with someone you don't trust. I wouldn't trust most of my corpmates with my CC info,  that doesn't mean they're not friends.   What cracks me up is the whole "You'll never RP in this town again!" attitude.  Again, I'm going to point out the hypocrisy of a community that supposedly hates heists, but includes Istvaan, the mastermind of the greatest heist of EVE's early days.

And oh yeah, the heist was against an RP entity.

[Mr. Smuggles]

That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL. Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so. That's the kind of things that reminds me why we have laws IRL, since apparently, it's quite needed.

I don't necessarily find this view correct though, because by and large, despite CCPs encouragement, and a theft to stir up discontent, I still have 20 people in my corp, and people still trust me to make decisions. For every person there ready to try and stab you in the back, there's 10 who will jump in front of the dagger for you, and I think that has been the real strength through all of this. Just because you can burn bridges doesn't mean you can't also build them, and I have. My current flatmate, I met through EVE, most of my closest, most longtime friends are people I know ingame, met ingame, or are other EVE players. I still talk to Bai'xao in a perfectly friendly manner OOC, and even to Olm, the IC 'mastermind' behind the hoist, and I'd still be willing to have have a drink with them irl.

Of course, I'm also willing to burn their corporation to the ground.

I think that while its important to main an IC/OOC divide, its equally if not more important to maintain an ingame/IRL divide. Its the far side of that second divide that leads to things like, people killing each other over Everquest II.

Good to see someone who can separate RL and EVE.  One question:  would you let Bai'xao/Olm (not any of the heist involved characters, ofc) in your corp, with no roles?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

You can be friends with someone you don't trust.

This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.

[Hamish Grayson]

I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.

Here's the thing, though: You have a spy alt. That's an easy thing to do, right? But if you look at your spy alt ICly, why are they spying for your main? Is there a rationale for it? Have you worked out a story behind why this happened? I know that sounds ridiculous, but imagine your spy alt was actually a different player's character: You'd have to work out ICly with them why they're spying. At the very least, they'd need a compelling reason why they're going through all this trouble for Ché: Money? Blackmail? Something else?

If you just create a "spy alt" and leave it like that, you're dropping the IC game and stepping squarely into OOC-ville. Likewise, if a player creates an alt and uses it to steal someone's assets, transferring them to a main before deleting the alt, it's all OOC. Why would the thief do that? They've gotten away with a few billion isk in assets. Why would they give them to someone else and then retire?

To me, a player who's creating characters to perpetrate corp thefts and wishing to keep them IC would probably have to be satisfied with doing the theft and then biomassing the character along with all of the loot. That character was successful in their heist, after all. They're retiring to spend their hard-earned loot!

For a spy alt it's a bit harder, because there's an implicit relationship between the alt and the main. I've never seen someone playing a spy alt in a way that's felt like it's anything other than an OOC relationship, but I suppose it could be done.

That's why I, at least, am fine with the alt-name-and-shame game.

+5 Charisma implant.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

You can be friends with someone you don't trust.

This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.

I agree. Mr. Smuggles here seems to use the word 'friendship' to refer to something that is quite unlike what I understand by 'friendship'. Friendship without trust is like French fries that aren't made out of potatoes or steak that's not from an animal. Similarly, I'm quite baffled by the notion that trust isn't worth anything, unless it's in regard to something that one has legal protection against. I'd think that if I have the benefit that there is legal protection, then I don't need to involve trust that much, it's worth less in a way. Real trust is most valuable where one can't depend on the force of law to be on one side if things go other than expected.

But, that's just me. vOv

[Havohej]

[admin]Lots of reports here, thread locked while I figure out wtf is going on.Alright, unlocking the thread with the note that the topic is an emotionally charged one for many people and thus many people would be well-served by making sure they're quite calm before posting.  Only one post needed to be removed here, to my eyes, and no formal warnings needed to be sent... that said, the thread has come pretty close to the edge a couple of times and if it does so again, I'm just gonna push it all the way over (i.e.: lock it).[/admin]