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[Anatole Madullier]

Let me just say one thing on the subject of trust.

The best RP I have found here is by trusting people. To fly into their wormhole in my terribad fit incursus expecting fully to be blown up and podded on a whim due to the lawlessness of EVE. Yet from that sprung a bunch of RP that I am seriously enjoying.

IC and OOC trust are two separate things but they are not mutually exclusive. But if IC trust is broken, the two players can still go hand in hand and play on. If OOC trust is broken it is quite possible that from that point on forward there might be no more IC interaction either, often by choice.

I like the idea that what you have can be destroyed, it adds a sense of danger, a certain excitement. It also allows you to create a false sense of security. Though some people take this to the extreme and play EVE simply to wreck the playing fun of others.  And that's simply said, not cool.

Play EVE the way you want it, it allows for it.

That said, about the heist. It happens. We live, we learn, life goes on. It can't fully be prevented.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.

Suspicious yes. Doesn't mean that everybody does it.... does it ? I hope not...

The same way that everyone IRL can be suspected to deal in crime at night, does not mean that everyone does.

And just as IRL I wouldn't suspect person A more than person B, simply because person A is honest in the point that he 'once contemplated theft but didn't do it, because he is more interested in getting along with people'. And sure that doesn't say that everybody does it, just that Che is as (un)likely as everybody else, prima facie. Actually, I'd rather trust someone who wear his heart on his sleeve, like Che does, then someone who never said something in that regard but declares openly that he shoot everyone given the opportunity, with no regard to friendship whatsoever.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.

Here's the thing, though: You have a spy alt. That's an easy thing to do, right? But if you look at your spy alt ICly, why are they spying for your main? Is there a rationale for it? Have you worked out a story behind why this happened? I know that sounds ridiculous, but imagine your spy alt was actually a different player's character: You'd have to work out ICly with them why they're spying. At the very least, they'd need a compelling reason why they're going through all this trouble for Ché: Money? Blackmail? Something else?

If you just create a "spy alt" and leave it like that, you're dropping the IC game and stepping squarely into OOC-ville. Likewise, if a player creates an alt and uses it to steal someone's assets, transferring them to a main before deleting the alt, it's all OOC. Why would the thief do that? They've gotten away with a few billion isk in assets. Why would they give them to someone else and then retire?

To me, a player who's creating characters to perpetrate corp thefts and wishing to keep them IC would probably have to be satisfied with doing the theft and then biomassing the character along with all of the loot. That character was successful in their heist, after all. They're retiring to spend their hard-earned loot!

For a spy alt it's a bit harder, because there's an implicit relationship between the alt and the main. I've never seen someone playing a spy alt in a way that's felt like it's anything other than an OOC relationship, but I suppose it could be done.

That's why I, at least, am fine with the alt-name-and-shame game.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Who said that Che's spy alt would be spying for his main?

[Saede Riordan]

I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.

Here's the thing, though: You have a spy alt. That's an easy thing to do, right? But if you look at your spy alt ICly, why are they spying for your main? Is there a rationale for it? Have you worked out a story behind why this happened? I know that sounds ridiculous, but imagine your spy alt was actually a different player's character: You'd have to work out ICly with them why they're spying. At the very least, they'd need a compelling reason why they're going through all this trouble for Ché: Money? Blackmail? Something else?

If you just create a "spy alt" and leave it like that, you're dropping the IC game and stepping squarely into OOC-ville. Likewise, if a player creates an alt and uses it to steal someone's assets, transferring them to a main before deleting the alt, it's all OOC. Why would the thief do that? They've gotten away with a few billion isk in assets. Why would they give them to someone else and then retire?

To me, a player who's creating characters to perpetrate corp thefts and wishing to keep them IC would probably have to be satisfied with doing the theft and then biomassing the character along with all of the loot. That character was successful in their heist, after all. They're retiring to spend their hard-earned loot!

For a spy alt it's a bit harder, because there's an implicit relationship between the alt and the main. I've never seen someone playing a spy alt in a way that's felt like it's anything other than an OOC relationship, but I suppose it could be done.

That's why I, at least, am fine with the alt-name-and-shame game.

Clonejacking. 

[Ché Biko]

Yeah, what Shintoko wrote is pretty much how I would not do it. My chars share nothing, not even ISK. They don't know eachother, and considering I can't play them at the same time, they will likely never meet.
Well, ok, skill training time, and some stuff like CCP gifts in the redeeming system is split between them. (And in case you were wondering, Ché got the PLEX4SNITCHES, because he's the good guy. The spy would of course just have catalogued all your usernames, so you're all lucky I was not playing that char at the time. /joke)

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Yeah, what Shintoko wrote is pretty much how I would not do it. My chars share nothing, not even ISK.

In that case I'd argue that your spy alt really isn't a spy alt, they're just another character.

[Lyn Farel]

Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.

Suspicious yes. Doesn't mean that everybody does it.... does it ? I hope not...

The same way that everyone IRL can be suspected to deal in crime at night, does not mean that everyone does.

And just as IRL I wouldn't suspect person A more than person B, simply because person A is honest in the point that he 'once contemplated theft but didn't do it, because he is more interested in getting along with people'. And sure that doesn't say that everybody does it, just that Che is as (un)likely as everybody else, prima facie. Actually, I'd rather trust someone who wear his heart on his sleeve, like Che does, then someone who never said something in that regard but declares openly that he shoot everyone given the opportunity, with no regard to friendship whatsoever.

I understood that Ché actually does that kind of things. I must have read wrong. My apologies.

[Ché Biko]

[..]I'd argue that your spy alt really isn't a spy alt, they're just another character.

I thought that the definition of an alt char is a character in addition to one's "primary" or "Main" player character.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

[..]I'd argue that your spy alt really isn't a spy alt, they're just another character.

I thought that the definition of an alt char is a character in addition to one's "primary" or "Main" player character.

Well, I think we're a bit impoverished for terminology, here. Your alts don't have an OOC connection, and you play them that way. Other people treat their alts as puppets for their main, and this especially applies to most people's spy alts. Think of all the spy alts in noob corps/ships you see sitting on the high sec side of a high->low sec gate.

I'm getting towards the point where I dislike the term "alt" for a character that's not a puppet for someone's main. I have a couple of alts: Dakki (who, the occasional RP scene aside, really exists to be CEO of the corp that Shin keeps most of her wallet in) and Anu (who is a character in and of himself, with no real connection to Shin). Dakki is an obvious alt, while Anu is more of a minor character.

[Myyona]

Yeah, what Shintoko wrote is pretty much how I would not do it. My chars share nothing, not even ISK. They don't know eachother, and considering I can't play them at the same time, they will likely never meet.

True, true.

I often have a hard time handwaving when one of my characters on my primary account help another out (transferring items and ISK) as they have no real IC motivation to do so. Heck, most of them do not really like each other as their personalities do not match.

I have a second account, and the characters there better fit the 'alt' role. But for spying purposes, Shintoko is spot on.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?

I'm like everyone else, I suspect. I respect your right to roleplay the way you want to - but if you or an alt of yours steals from me or one of my circle I will fucking CUT you. This is because ingame assets have a realworld value - even if it's only time spent.

I imagine that Ghandi might be able to firewall douchebaggery and dickishness on an IC / OOC basis, but most of us are just not that evolved. As Vinnie said, don't shit where you eat.

(Disclaimer: Pieter Tuulinen does not advocate real world consequences for ingame actions. Pieter Tuulinen does not advocate the use of violence to solve non-violent problems. Pieter Tuulinen reccomends that you always act in accordance with Local and Federal legislation)

[Makkal]

I am unlikely to 'fucking CUT you' for stealing stuff.

Please don't attribute your personal reactions to everyone.

[Shiori]

Don't fuck and try to cut people at the same time, anyway, it's bound to end in tears.

[Saede Riordan]

Don't fuck and try to cut people at the same time, anyway, it's bound to end in tears.

Unless you're into that.