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[Sepherim]

So, Silver was right that debating this in the Alignment thread topic would be quite a decent amount of derailing. So I'm going to copy here all comments on the idea, and so we don't need to derail the original topic.

Pieter: lawful neutral or evil, mostly because caldari ideals are about promotion, economic gain and self-interest in the end.

Actually, Caldari believe in the good of the group over the good of the individual fairly heavily. Of course they only work towards the end of an inlier group that they're part of - not the general weal of humanity.

To a degree, I agree with you, and you certainly more much more about the Caldari than I do. Yet, in the core of the Caldari State model is a structure of economic neoliberalism taken to the extreme, much like in the core of the cyberpunk vision which is the base of the State.

And the neoliberal economic approach to a world view starts with "everyone fends for themselves", "the weak fall before the strong", "the economic prowess has to be achieved over any methods", etc. Which are actually 100% individualistic and power based ideologies and perceptions, based on no external influence to meddle or interfere in social relations. In the end, taken to an extreme, neoliberal economic ideology is pretty close to anarchism.

The consideration of group (for certain definitions of group) good over the individual is the twist that was put on the Caldari that makes it not just a clone of many cyberpunk settings (though it does allow us to lift interesting tropes and things from them).

I think I didn't miss any quotes, sorry if I did, just point it out and I'll add them.

[Lyn Farel]

The Caldari are about promotion, economic gain and self interest in the end, but the mistake would be to believe that they are at the individual level. Actually their upbringing brings them to believe the exact contrary, unlike the Feds. Where these values come into the equation for the Caldari is at the group level: the corporation and the collective.

Of course that doesn't mean that they don't hold these values at the individual level at all, just that they restrain them for that they are brought to believe that it is necessary for to make concession for something above them. And the only thing above them is the corporation or the collective. For all the rest, they sure are about promotion, economic gain and self interest. And when that's above them, then it's the thing above them that is about promotion, economic gain and self interest instead of them at the individual level.

Of course though, when the sake of the collective is not at stake, I expect them to behave exactly like that between themselves as well when they don't personally know each other.

[Makkal]

As I understand it, the basis of Caldari thought is that the individual exists to serve the group. That's why Nation is a product of a Caldari man and not a Gallente or Minmatar.

Capitalism is simply a preferred arena for competition between groups. In fact, I'd suggest that making money or gaining wealth isn't inherently valuable to the Caldari. It's the point system for the larger Caldari game.

Economic and military strength aren't valued because they get you cool stuff. They're valued because it's what keeps your group from losing.

[Galen Darksmith]

As I understand it, the basis of Caldari thought is that the individual exists to serve the group. That's why Nation is a product of a Caldari man and not a Gallente or Minmatar.

Capitalism is simply a preferred arena for competition between groups. In fact, I'd suggest that making money or gaining wealth isn't inherently valuable to the Caldari. It's the point system for the larger Caldari game.

This is supported by the PF:

Competition, efficiency and market share is more important to the corporations than accumulation of wealth (although the latter is often a happy by-product of the former). Business for the good of the individual rather than the good of the many is something totally alien to the Caldari.

Edit: to add to the discussion, even though I don't much care for the concept of alignments...

The Caldari and Minmatar are both "Neutral" on the Good/Evil axis.  Everything that they do, they do for the sake of their own people, or "family."  They'll do amazing, shining, noble things to protect them, and horrible, dreadful, disgusting things to avenge them.  And sometimes vice versa.  But outside of their own people, they have very little interest or cares.

The Gallente and Amarr are a different story, and because of how nebulous alignments are in a world where there is no objective Evil, much harder to pin down.  They have ways of life that they believe are "The Perfect Way of Living" and intend for, one day, everyone in the cluster to be living like them.  At their best, they honestly believe that they're helping those poor people.  At their worst, they're gleefully destroying opposing viewpoints due to their solid belief that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

[Makkal]

One thing I like about EVE is that it presents social systems that are familiar at first blush but alien when you come to understand them.

I wish more Federation PCs would get behind screaming a man to death.

[Saana]

If you consider the Caldari State to be the CEP, the House of Records, the Navy and the Business Tribunal, the Caldari State is, for the megacorporations, a liberalist dream. However, if you include the megacorporations as a part of the state government, it becomes quickly apparent that the Caldari State economy is nearly completely state-driven, and in parts of the state where a specific megacorporation has near monopoly it probably has features of a planned command economy even if the whole is capitalist.

Also, as the individual citizen/employee probably has very little chance of advancing to the top, there is no such thing as the American Dream in the Caldari State (that's a Gallentean thing). So while collectively the Caldari may go for market share etc., excluding the highest leadership of the megacorporations, the individual Caldari are "working for the good of the community".

[Lithium Flower]

As I understand it, the basis of Caldari thought is that the individual exists to serve the group. That's why Nation is a product of a Caldari man and not a Gallente or Minmatar.

Capitalism is simply a preferred arena for competition between groups. In fact, I'd suggest that making money or gaining wealth isn't inherently valuable to the Caldari. It's the point system for the larger Caldari game.

This is supported by the PF:

Competition, efficiency and market share is more important to the corporations than accumulation of wealth (although the latter is often a happy by-product of the former). Business for the good of the individual rather than the good of the many is something totally alien to the Caldari.

Edit: to add to the discussion, even though I don't much care for the concept of alignments...

The Caldari and Minmatar are both "Neutral" on the Good/Evil axis.  Everything that they do, they do for the sake of their own people, or "family."  They'll do amazing, shining, noble things to protect them, and horrible, dreadful, disgusting things to avenge them.  And sometimes vice versa.  But outside of their own people, they have very little interest or cares.

This this and this.
And this is why it is very easy for a Caldari character to depict Gallente as "evil side": "We are doing it for our society, and you do it for your own sake!"

Need more gallente haters 

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

One thing I like about EVE is that it presents social systems that are familiar at first blush but alien when you come to understand them.

I wish more Federation PCs would get behind screaming a man to death.

This should probably be split off into a GalFed ideology thread if we continue the discussion, but yeah, I totally agree with you. The especially telling thing is that this happened under (and by the decision of) a president widely regarded as a dove.

[Katrina Oniseki]

If you believe some of the player rhetoric floating around, making your corporation rich is bad and you should only be spending your money and everybody else's money on fighting a no-win war!

I love how that is reflected in Kaalakiota, as the conflict has driven KK nearly bankrupt and feeble, while Ishukone has grown stronger and stronger by staying out of it.

Who's laughing now? 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Kaalakiota isn't broke because it paid for the State Protectorate. It's broke because it paid for the entire CPD. I'm sure the CPD does stuff other than keep me in Condors and Kessies.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Kaalakiota isn't broke because it paid for the State Protectorate. It's broke because it paid for the entire CPD. I'm sure the CPD does stuff other than keep me in Condors and Kessies.

I was referring to the LP stores, where the State Protectorate has been giving out countless trillions in goods for the last five years to capsuleers. That money and material had to come from somewhere. I think that's the real cost of the militia conflict for the empires: LP stores, along with NPC ships for plexes.

Heth says KK was spending more on the war than anybody else was, and railed against the other megas for not doing the same. Maybe he was offering a cover story for spending KK on his CPD payroll department, but I doubt it. I think he bankrupted Kaalakiota trying to put the whole war under his belt alone, while the other Megas only offered what they were legally required to offer.

You asked me in steam why this didn't affect the other nations. Well, it did. The Minmatar are flat broke because of it, their people starving like kids in sub-Saharan Africa. I'm pretty sure there are old men on Federation TVs begging citizens to dedicate fifty cents a day to feeding a starving Republic child. Meanwhile, the Republic is building battleships by the fleet-full.

The Empire, I dunno.

The Federation seems to have grown stronger under a war economy, which I attribute to Roden. I'd have to let other Feddie roleplayers comment on that.

[Galen Darksmith]

I think general mismanagement by Heth is what caused KK to tank.  His major (informed) ability is battlefield command, he doesn't know jack about running things when the dust settles.  Once he lost his his actually competent second-in-command (did we ever find out who did that, by the way?  I need to send them a gift basket) he was effectively screwed.  Combine that with his degrading mental state from disease, and I imagine Heth was doing his best reenactment of Downfall during his stay in Bunker Haatomo.

[Makkal]

As Kat has pointed out on a number of occasion, Heth doesn't have much in the way of battlefield ability either.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I suspect he's been funneling mad funds to arm the Templis Dragonaurs.

[Samira Kernher]

Kaalakiota isn't broke because it paid for the State Protectorate. It's broke because it paid for the entire CPD. I'm sure the CPD does stuff other than keep me in Condors and Kessies.

I was referring to the LP stores, where the State Protectorate has been giving out countless trillions in goods for the last five years to capsuleers. That money and material had to come from somewhere. I think that's the real cost of the militia conflict for the empires: LP stores, along with NPC ships for plexes.

Heth says KK was spending more on the war than anybody else was, and railed against the other megas for not doing the same. Maybe he was offering a cover story for spending KK on his CPD payroll department, but I doubt it. I think he bankrupted Kaalakiota trying to put the whole war under his belt alone, while the other Megas only offered what they were legally required to offer.

You asked me in steam why this didn't affect the other nations. Well, it did. The Minmatar are flat broke because of it, their people starving like kids in sub-Saharan Africa. I'm pretty sure there are old men on Federation TVs begging citizens to dedicate fifty cents a day to feeding a starving Republic child. Meanwhile, the Republic is building battleships by the fleet-full.

The Empire, I dunno.

The Federation seems to have grown stronger under a war economy, which I attribute to Roden. I'd have to let other Feddie roleplayers comment on that.

I would expect the Empire to be pretty well-off. We have the most reserves due to being the oldest society, and the most food and minerals in the cluster, which we're selling to our beloved friends in the State and possibly to the Federation and Republic (through the Kingdom). I would imagine the ships and weapons used by the State Protectorate are primarily built out of materials supplied by the Empire, or built and sold directly by Imperial Armaments.

And of course, the Empire already has a very military-focused culture, and thus already has the infrastructure for constructing and maintaining a large armed force. It likely didn't need to do much work at all to convert into a war economy.

As the war grew more intense, the areas directly in the line of fire, especially the Bleak Lands, grew more and more destitute. However, as Holders fled these areas, they brought their many slaves and wealth to the core regions of the Empire, bolstering it as a whole. In general, while the Empire remains economically down overall from its heights prior to the breakout of the Empyrean War, its economy is generally considered strong by most analysts.

-Economy of the Amarr Empire, EVElopedia

The only economy stronger than the Empire's right now is the Federation, and probably only because it's more efficient and more open to outside trade.