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[Samira Kernher]

Finally, Samira, you are awesome for having the Book of Exalted Deeds near at hand.  (unless you cheated and googled it, in which case, gg)

Does it count as at hand or as cheating if I have it (and multiple other DnD books) torrented and available on my HD in PDF form?

[Havohej]

Since it's 2013, that counts as having it near at hand

Gods bless modern technology and free shelf space!

[Andreus Ixiris]

Andreus: TN seems rather fitting.

I disagree. I realise that people can't always see it because I (by neccessity) know more about Andreus than they do, but at heart he's definitely NG. A lot of people saying he's TN/CN/CE forget that he'll often talk about doing nasty things but generally when the chips are down he doesn't have the stomach to do something reprehensible. According to most people, the most objectionable thing he ever did was slap a woman across the face, and he had to be drunk off his face and suffering from severe depression to get to that level. He can be petty and spiteful, and that can sometimes lead him to say he'll do horrible things to people, but he's pretty much incapable of making good on this threats. In recent times, quite often he's not even really angry at the person he's yelling at - he's just angry that circumstances don't allow a peaceful resolution (or that they do, but he doesn't have the personal power to make it happen), and he's externalising that onto whoever seems relevant.

So in my view, he's NG with some very serious control issues.

Believes in good, but understands that occasionally harsher methods need to be used to safeguard it (thus supported Black Eagles IIRC).

Pretended to support the Black Eagles. He was hoping he'd get close enough to them to dig up some heinous shit but he blew his cover too early by trying to help those hackers.

[Samira Kernher]

Believes in good, but understands that occasionally harsher methods need to be used to safeguard it (thus supported Black Eagles IIRC).

Pretended to support the Black Eagles. He was hoping he'd get close enough to them to dig up some heinous shit but he blew his cover too early by trying to help those hackers.

Aha. In that case, that definitely alters my views. I considered him TN mainly because I thought he had honestly been supporting the BEs. Didn't know it was an act.

[Andreus Ixiris]

Aha. In that case, that definitely alters my views. I considered him TN mainly because I thought he had honestly been supporting the BEs. Didn't know it was an act.

Even if he was entirely pragmatic and amoral, Andreus wouldn't genuinely side with the Black Eagles. He's utterly convinced it'll eventually end in tears, and he wouldn't want to be associated with it when it does.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

DnD scale is an objective western morality scale. It's about actions. Slavery counts as an evil action. Likewise, personal sacrifice is a good action. In both cases, it takes more than one evil or good action to determine someone's alignment.

"Even if slavery, torture, or discrimination are condoned by society, they remain evil. That simply means that an exalted character has an even harder road to follow. Not only must she worry about external evils like conjured demons and rampaging orc hordes, she must also contend with the evil within her own society." - Book of Exalted Deeds

The DnD scale is not designed to be subjective. It's built to be a classic black and white scale. The Amarr Empire is a Lawful Evil society by the DnD scale. There's nothing wrong with that.

But then the Amarr Empire and religion promotes charity, self-sacrifice, virtue, righteousness and purity. One could argue that even slavery in the Amarr Empire is an - probably misguided - attempt at redeeming evil. As the Book of exalted deeds says:

In all likelihood, most human (and halfling) societies fall somewhere between the two extremes described above. In game terms, humans tend to be neutral, neither good nor evil. Human societies might tolerate a variety of evil practices, even if some humans find them distasteful.

As such, tolerating or incorporating an evil practice doesn't already make the entire society evil - the Amarr Empire could well be a Lawful Neutral society by DnD standards, just as it takes more than just one evil or good act to determine the alignment of a character. Especially considering that the book iteself referrs first that one might very well have a world setting where slavery, unequal treatment for woman etc. is the norm.

[Vincent Pryce]

Suddenly Serious Business.

[Streya]

I'm not entirely sure where to rank Streya in all of this, though I'm leaning towards True Neutral, perhaps Chaotic Neutral.

In terms of law: It depends on which law. She respects her clan's laws, as well as most of her Tribe's laws. Beyond that she obeys only those laws she agrees with.

In terms of morality: Her long-term ideological goals aside, she'll help those in need if they truly need it. On the other hand, she'll exploit others (particularly capsuleers or DUST mercs, who are semi-immortal) for gain and profit quite readily, depending on who they are. There was only one small event with an RSS dev actor that might mark her as "Chaotic Good", but overall I'd say she's morally neutral.


As for other characters (from Streya's viewpoint, assuming "Good" = altruistic motivation and "Evil" = selfish motivation)..

Anslo: Neutral Good/Choatic Good. He does what he thinks is best, regardless of what the rules say about it.

Kala: Streya has never met Kala, but as a player I'd definitely say Lawful Good; she has respect for tradition and what is morally correct.

Karmilla: Neutral Evil. Not sure if anyone can recall, but Streya asked Karmilla if she's Sabik in The Summit a week or two prior to Silas revealing that Karmilla is in fact her new pupil. She seems the type to respect or ignore the law as the situation fits, so long as it benefits her in the end.

Makkal: Makkal strikes Streya as being Lawful Good or at times Neutral Good. She's a social butterfly who sometimes strays away from societal norms and rules in order to interact with others, but she seems to have the best of intentions.

Pieter: Lawful Good. While he's been put on the spot a few times and has to decide whether or not to simply obey orders or refuse them on moral grounds, Streya has seen Pieter simply do the right thing in most situations. If there's something he really disagrees with on moral grounds, he seems the sort to use the law to snake his way out of having to do it.

Steffanie: Unknown. Streya has yet to interact with her

Merdaneth: Lawful Neutral. While she understand most traditional Amarrians believe themselves to be acting altruistically, she sees slave-taking as being inherently selfish and evil.

Silas: Lawful Evil.

Katrina: Streya views Kat as Lawful Good. If Kat has done some nasty things, she's done a good job of keeping them out of the public spotlight (and thus out of view of my character)

Saede: Streya views Saede as being Chaotic Good.

Synthia: Neutral Good. Streya is not sure what specific rules and traditions Synthia follows, but she does know Synthia acts altruistically out of conviction from her faith.

Lyn: Overwhelmingly True Neutral. She never seems to take sides, but she does like to pick apart arguments and point out flaws in reasoning.

Aria: Unknown! Streya hasn't interacted with Aria before. As a player I'd almost say True Neutral, but the test result of Neutral Good doesn't surprise me either.

Samira: Lawful Neutral/Evil. Streya sees Sami as following rules and traditions, but primarily for the purposes of personal safety, self-preservation, and well-being.

Aldy: Strikes Streya as Neutral Good. Fights for what he believes in, which at times falls within tradition and law and at other times does not.

Vince: While she hasn't interacted with Vince at all, Streya is from Molden Heath and has rumors of the infamous Vincent Pryce coming in from Curse. She views him as Choatic Neutral with some slight tendencies towards Choatic Good. Fight the power, man!

Seriphyn: Chaotic Neutral. He always seems to be questioning the status quo in the name of GREAT JUSTICE, which is an admirable trait in Streya's eyes.

Gwen: Lawful Good, hands down.

There's probably more I've forgotten, if I have feel free to poke me!

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Took me a while to come to terms with this, mainly for "RL is not D&D" and "D&D morality does not fit teh grimdark" reasons. I took the alignment test for Shin, for instance, and she came out as some bastardized combination of chaotic good and neutral evil, mainly due to the combination of her realpolitik attitudes and her absolute devotion to her clade. Then I happily read this article talking about the very same thing, and decided that slapping the D&D alignments over the circle containing Schwartz's values works well enough for me.

So: Shin is hanging out generally around the CN/CE side of the circle. She's devoted to her clade, and to a lesser extent to her friends. Other than that, she's maintly motivated by her own hedonistic interests. Colelie seems to have changed that a bit, but the reality is that this change is primarily motivated by a close friend of hers, so it still fits in the above.

As for the rest of you (that I can figure out):

• Anslo: Definitely CN. He's got impulses to do good on a wider scale, but these are frequently steamrollered by his passions (which tend toward anger)
• Makkal: LN. She is, after all, a proper Khanid lady. Others have argued that she tends away from this, because of her tendency to associate with diverse people. I'd simply call this an excellent example of Khanid hospitality and ettiquete.
• Pieter: LG, with a drift towards NG, for the same reasons that Sami mentioned. Pyre is definitely not a LG corporation, which provides some tension for his character. At the same time, he really is their moral anchor.
• Silas: NE. Some have argued that she's more LE, due to her desires for a structure for her life. I feel that this is still more on the NE side, simply because she desires to provide that structure for others on account of her own personal power.
• Saede: True neutral, for lack of any other good option. If you plotted her values and actions on this chart, they'd ring the outer edges without getting near the center at all. She's a loose cannon, though, so these tend to be pretty evenly distributed around the circle. The average puts her smack in the middle.
• Aria: CN drifting towards CG a little. She is all about creating her own path and walking it. The CG parts are the result of her desire to let other people know about that path, in the apparent hopes that some others will benefit from this.
• Diana Kim: LE. It sounds a bit harsh, but my views of the character are that something happened in her past to make her value security over all else. Everything else follows naturally from that.
• Steffanie: True neutral. Like Saede, she doesn't seem to do much in the center of the circle, but her views and achievements seems to polarize between the NG and NE sides of things.
• Streya: Probably CN, though it's a little hard to say. Many of the things she's done and said recently have been in the service to others despite her own wishes, which makes it hard to put her all the way towards the CN side of things.

[Lyn Farel]

Interesting to see LG applied to Amarrians at all, what with the whole slavery as part of religious beliefs thing.

Slavery = evil is a western concept.

Good vs Evil in the D&D alignement looks more like selfless paragon vs self interest to me.

DnD scale is an objective western morality scale. It's about actions. Slavery counts as an evil action. Likewise, personal sacrifice is a good action. In both cases, it takes more than one evil or good action to determine someone's alignment.

"Even if slavery, torture, or discrimination are condoned by society, they remain evil. That simply means that an exalted character has an even harder road to follow. Not only must she worry about external evils like conjured demons and rampaging orc hordes, she must also contend with the evil within her own society." - Book of Exalted Deeds

The DnD scale is not designed to be subjective. It's built to be a classic black and white scale. The Amarr Empire is a Lawful Evil society by the DnD scale. There's nothing wrong with that.

Interesting to see LG applied to Amarrians at all, what with the whole slavery as part of religious beliefs thing.

Slavery = evil is a western concept.

So?  I'm a western man.  Besides, I reject your premise on two grounds.

First, the western world practiced slavery longer and more efficiently than any other region, in more than one form.  Also, I strongly doubt that if you questioned someone in, say, Bangladesh or Yemen about the subject you'd hear many people extolling its virtues.  So really, what "slavery = evil" is is a modern concept.

Second, in every version of D&D, as Samira points out, slavery is considered an evil act.  Western morality scale or not, it's certainly evil in the context of this discussion (i.e.: D&D alignments applied to internet spaceships).

Finally, Samira, you are awesome for having the Book of Exalted Deeds near at hand.  (unless you cheated and googled it, in which case, gg)

Yeah, modern, not western, whatever.

Fair enough, I don't play DnD and don't know a lot of things about it.

[Samira Kernher]

• Silas: NE. Some have argued that she's more LE, due to her desires for a structure for her life. I feel that this is still more on the NE side, simply because she desires to provide that structure for others on account of her own personal power.

Wanting to impose order on others in order to place herself at the top is still Lawful, however. Order is still important. The majority of Lawful Evil characters want to impose order in order to put themselves on the top. As I said in my post, the question is if she would break her own laws for her own benefit. If she would, NE. If not, then LE. Power through order = Lawful Evil. Power through whatever means necessary = Neutral Evil.

DnD scale is an objective western morality scale. It's about actions. Slavery counts as an evil action. Likewise, personal sacrifice is a good action. In both cases, it takes more than one evil or good action to determine someone's alignment.

"Even if slavery, torture, or discrimination are condoned by society, they remain evil. That simply means that an exalted character has an even harder road to follow. Not only must she worry about external evils like conjured demons and rampaging orc hordes, she must also contend with the evil within her own society." - Book of Exalted Deeds

The DnD scale is not designed to be subjective. It's built to be a classic black and white scale. The Amarr Empire is a Lawful Evil society by the DnD scale. There's nothing wrong with that.

But then the Amarr Empire and religion promotes charity, self-sacrifice, virtue, righteousness and purity. One could argue that even slavery in the Amarr Empire is an - probably misguided - attempt at redeeming evil. As the Book of exalted deeds says:

In all likelihood, most human (and halfling) societies fall somewhere between the two extremes described above. In game terms, humans tend to be neutral, neither good nor evil. Human societies might tolerate a variety of evil practices, even if some humans find them distasteful.

As such, tolerating or incorporating an evil practice doesn't already make the entire society evil - the Amarr Empire could well be a Lawful Neutral society by DnD standards, just as it takes more than just one evil or good act to determine the alignment of a character. Especially considering that the book iteself referrs first that one might very well have a world setting where slavery, unequal treatment for woman etc. is the norm.

If it was just slavery, I'd agree. But the inclusion of torture as a standard punishment, expansion through conquest, and use of genocide all add up to a Lawful Evil culture, IMO.

Amarr Empire are classic Knights Templar.

[Karmilla Strife]

Streya: I remember that incident. I was trying to avoid answering the question because Silas wanted to keep things quiet until the ceremony. Still a good observation.

[Saede Riordan]

Okay, so, here is mine, and I'm going to be doing a bit of a twist and using the modified alignment system described here. I will be indicating a Primary and Secondary attribute for each person. If Saede and my perspectives significantly differ in position on anyone, I'll elaborate on it.


Anslo: Primarily Sybaritic and secondarily Autonomous - Anslo is primarily motivated by a personal desire for comfort, security, and pleasure. He doesn't go out of his way to harm people (usually) but doesn't do anything to help them either, unless it doesn't inconvenience him to do so. He has his, and is concerned with his very small ingroup, and the rest of the universe can fuck off. 

Kala: Primarily Righteous and secondarily Humane - Kala seems primarily motivated by her people's customs, and conforms strongly to them. What they say is good is good, and what they say is bad is bad. She upholds her people's traditions with conviction and integrity, without losing grasp of her humanity and becoming xenophobic or racist.

Karmilla: Primarily Ambitious and secondarily Sybaritic - This is just a guess, I don't know that much about Karmilla in-character, but she seems to be primarily motivated by self interest and desire to achieve power, which, you know, Sani Sabik...

Makkal: Primarily Orthodox and secondarily Righteous- Makkal is a good girl. She follows the rules, and has a clear understanding of them. Saede doesn't know Makkal too well, but gets along with her well enough. Makkal in general, seems like a good person, and doesn't seek to harm anyone, however, Saede does feel, if pressed between doing the right thing, and doing the proper thing, if there were ever a time when the two were incompatible, she would do what was expected of her.

Pieter: Righteous / Orthodox - Pieter is something of a special case. On one hand, he seems to very much want to be a good person, to be kind, and to be altruistic. However, this is conflicted by the fact that he is in an organisation that is anything but. He is motivated by a desire to help and do right by his people, and to his people, who often seem engaged in actively immoral and sometimes outright sociopathic acts. Saede hopes that Pieter will eventually fall in line with Stitcher in terms of values, however, its possible that when push comes to shove, his loyalty will win out over his humanity.

Steffanie: Primarily Humane and secondarily Transcendent - Saede has high hopes for this one.

Merdaneth: Primarily Orthodox and Secondarily Righteous - Merdaneth is a loyal Amarrian, devoted to god and empress. Where this compels him to do good, he will, but if it compels him to do ill, he will not hesitate.

Silas: Primarily Ambitious and secondarily Ascendant  - She desires power, and security. Like a dragon hoarding gold in a mountain lair.

Katrina: Primarily Ascendant and secondarily Orthodox - Katrina seems rather ambitious to Saede, driven by a desire for wealth, security, and comfort. She is loyal to her superiors and her traditions, but if they threw her out, she would keep going on her own. She is driven by her own desires.

Synthia: Orthodox - Doesn't seem to have any other settings then Do As it is Written. Would be interesting to try flipping some of her switches.

Lyn: Primarily Humane and secondarily Righteous - Generally a good person, doesn't seem too willing to rock the boat. Talks a lot, doesn't seem to visibly active however. Will keep an eye on, she does have potential.

Aria: Primarily Humane and secondarily Pragmatic  - Saede hasn't really been around Aria enough to form that much of a position on her, but she seems like a fascinating person. 

Samira: Orthodox - Samira is motivated by a desire to conform and submit.

Aldypoo: Primarily Orthodox and Secondarily Righteous - Aldrith is a loyal Amarrian, devoted to god and empress. Where this compels him to do good, he will, but if it compels him to do ill, he will not hesitate.

Vince: Primarily Sybaritic and secondarily Ambitious - Drugs, Sex, Power.

Seriphyn: Primarily Sybaritic and secondarily Autonomous - Likes to talk Transcendent, doesn't seem to practice what he preaches. Hard to place his actual motivations.

Gwen: Primarily Sybaritic and secondarily Pragmatic - Seems primarily motivated by self interest at the end of the day, not actively harmful to anyone, but she's not very motivated to altruism either. Realistic if confined worldview.

And of course, Saede: Primarily Transcendent and secondarily Humane - Saede is motivated by a desire to fix the universe, help everyone, and feels bad that she's not God and can't fix everything. This really may not be readily apparent in the context of the character, but I have always intended her actions, although they may be misguided at times, to be driven by altruism.

[Makkal]

Thank you,  Saede. That's a great break down.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Aldypoo got Merdaneth's description!