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Author Topic: Strange question...  (Read 9216 times)

Gwen Ikiryo

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #45 on: 17 Nov 2014, 09:26 »

I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.
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Jikahr

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #46 on: 17 Nov 2014, 09:45 »

It's bad enough that there are people trying to say that the planet was intelligently designed, that evolution is a hoax, and that the world is only 10,000 years old. Why make up a completely different explanation for what a clone is other than the way it really works in the real world, as we have evidence for today?

I understand your rant, but putting a jab against people who believe differently than you was completely unnecessary.

To your questions; I could be wrong but I think EVE's prime fiction regarding cloning was written before cloning was actually anything resembling scientifically possible in today's world. Rather than retcon the fiction, they've simply stuck with what was originally written.

Well, there is opinion, and then there is scientific fact.

Opinion or belief would be whether or not God exists. Scientifically proven fact points out that there are fossils that are millions of years old. People are free to believe what they want, but believing that the world is only 10,000 years old does not make it true.

As Issac Asimov says, “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Cloning has been around for a long time. Nature has been cloning plants for a billion years, humans have been cloning plants for at least a few thousand. Animals have now been cloned successfully in the lab for decades now. Dolly the sheep was cloned in 1996. I wonder how many of the CCP staff were born in 1996?

A sheep is a mammal just like a human is. The eggs and sperm are roughly the same size. It's no harder to clone a sheep than it is to clone a human. The only thing preventing the cloning of a human today are the courts and laws opposed to it.

The more a person reads into the procedure of cloning in EVE, the weirder and less scientific it sounds. Apparently, when we are downloaded into 'new' clones, the DNA isn't even our own yet. It takes a while for our DNA to 'set' into the new clone.

 Really? So how is this a clone then?

Unless it is an organism which is genetically identical to the original organism, then it does not meet the definition of a clone.

There is no 'belief' or 'opinion' involved. A clone is either genetically identical to the original, having been grown from undifferentiated cells from the original, or it is not a clone.
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Jikahr

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #47 on: 17 Nov 2014, 10:09 »

I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.

Yes, this is what I thought. However, it still sounds silly to me.

Cells are microscopic, and are thus easier to store and transport than animal and human corpses, even in a gelatinous 'biomass' form. It's not possible with today's science, but in the world of EVE it is conceivable that a cluster of cells could have their growth accelerated from fetus to adult sized within a few short years. Muscles could be kept from atrophying through electrical stimulation (it's not as though capsuleers ever use their muscles, though.) Several clones could be kept on stand-by, such as clothes in a closet.

Artificial flesh sculpted around artificial bones and so forth sounds like a lot more work than simply letting a fetus grow to maturity. It's like the difference between letting your cat get pregnant, and trying to build a kitten yourself. Even if it were possible, which one makes more sense?

Also, that creature would not be a clone, but more like a golem.

Frankenstein's monster was a golem. He was a collection of dead bodies, stitched together like a quilt, and then brought back to life with electricity. Of course, as any Amarrian could tell you, Frankenstein's monster was a soul-less abomination that had to be destroyed. Capsuleers for that matter, are also a soul-less abomination.

The idea of soul transference from one body to another has many interesting implications. The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #48 on: 17 Nov 2014, 10:10 »

In EVE clones of course, these 'clones' are made out of animal parts and corpses. So, whether or not your clone had a hymen would be dependent on whether the corpse they used had one or not.

They're made out of biomass, not corpses. Big difference. Biomass is a generic organic substance that can be grown into whatever is needed. It's closer to replicators in Star Trek, but obviously not quite so instantaneous. The biomass is used to grow the clone to precise specifications in a lab with all the parts desired. Whether this includes a hymen would be up to those specifications.

Possibly, but why does this biomass need to be made from ground up corpses and animals? Even plant material. such as easy to grow algae, would do. Vegetarians are still able to digest plant based organic compounds, and transform them into human/ animal tissue. You don't need smelly, messy animal based materials as a nutrient source.

Also, a clone is one of your own cells which has been cultivated into a genetically identical copy of you. It would be like your son or daughter, that is physically identical to you. Those cells would replicate into a zygote, etc. until it became a fetus. That fetus would develop from any nutrient material. Animal corpses would be too complex to digest, and feeding human corpses to a clone fetus would mean that every capsuleer is a cannibal. Even assuming accelerated growth, there is simply no need to use animal proteins or human flesh as a nutrient.

I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.

That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.

It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.

Quote
Wood is rare in space. There are no fields of grass in space stations. What would the animals eat? True, you could raise them on a planet, slaughter them all, and haul them up to a space station, but that's an awful lot of weight to send into orbit just to end up as a meal.

There is grass on stations. There are also lakes, seasons, and so on. There are even farms. Look at Gallente stations, or Minmatar ones.

Only the poorest sections of a station would just be a collection of metallic hallways. The higher quality areas look and feel identical to living on the surface of a planet.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/soft-passage/
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/spectral/
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Gwen Ikiryo

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #49 on: 17 Nov 2014, 10:27 »

I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.

Yes, this is what I thought. However, it still sounds silly to me.

Cells are microscopic, and are thus easier to store and transport than animal and human corpses, even in a gelatinous 'biomass' form. It's not possible with today's science, but in the world of EVE it is conceivable that a cluster of cells could have their growth accelerated from fetus to adult sized within a few short years. Muscles could be kept from atrophying through electrical stimulation (it's not as though capsuleers ever use their muscles, though.) Several clones could be kept on stand-by, such as clothes in a closet.

Artificial flesh sculpted around artificial bones and so forth sounds like a lot more work than simply letting a fetus grow to maturity. It's like the difference between letting your cat get pregnant, and trying to build a kitten yourself. Even if it were possible, which one makes more sense?

Also, that creature would not be a clone, but more like a golem.

Frankenstein's monster was a golem. He was a collection of dead bodies, stitched together like a quilt, and then brought back to life with electricity. Of course, as any Amarrian could tell you, Frankenstein's monster was a soul-less abomination that had to be destroyed. Capsuleers for that matter, are also a soul-less abomination.

The idea of soul transference from one body to another has many interesting implications. The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.

Like I said, I think the reason CCP went in this direction - Scientifically awkward or not - Was that the explanation of "true" clones, something you grow in a vat in a way more or less the same as a normal human would be grown in a womb, would take took too long to produce. Capsuleers would have to be sitting around for years after graduating before they got in a pod simply because none were ready yet. And considering the rate some people go through them...

Also, it's probably supposed to be ludicrously grimdark compared to the normal explanation one would expect, which CCP loves doing. Portraying Transhumanism as something grotesque and alien, rather then palatable, is one the core ideas of the setting.
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Jikahr

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #50 on: 17 Nov 2014, 10:50 »

Quote
I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.

That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.

It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.

Yes, this is what I am thinking. I am willing to use my suspension of disbelief to consider that the whole thing was written from an Amarrian perspective, as a way to explain it to the Amarrian commoner.

The lower grade clones being made from 'animal parts' may refer to the fetuses of slaves, split into hundreds or thousands of 'twins' by separating the undifferentiated cells of the blastocyte/ developing fetus. A slave is, after all, considered to be an 'animal' by many Amarrians. It may be an animal that you love, like a cat or dog, but a slave is an 'animal' nevertheless.

Higher grade clones are human 'corpses' because they were once the living fetuses of free born Amarrians, who had to undergo a highly shameful and secret abortion procedure. The Amarrian position on abortion is not clear, but many of the world's religions consider it as murder today. It's conceivable that the Amarrians would also frown upon it. They do believe that flesh is sacred, after all.

I could accept that the word 'clone' is a misnomer, in the same way that not every tissue is a kleenex. It would be more like a mind transference into another person's body, and perhaps your genetic imprint could be injected into it to over-ride it.

I have no problem with believing that Amarrians would consider a 'clone' from a slave fetus to be an inferior substitute for the 'clone' from the fetus of a free born. Also, it might be necessary to have a lot of 'blank' clone bodies standing by, waiting to be imprinted.

Perhaps it is a moot point. It looks like CCP is getting rid of cloning costs. Personally, I would get rid of that explanation about how cloning works as well.   

Quote
There is grass on stations. There are also lakes, seasons, and so on. There are even farms. Look at Gallente stations, or Minmatar ones.

Only the poorest sections of a station would just be a collection of metallic hallways. The higher quality areas look and feel identical to living on the surface of a planet.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/soft-passage/
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/spectral/

True, humans are going to want something resembling a natural environment to live in. Still, I can't see food animals being cultivated in space. If they were, I think they would be very, very expensive. Animals use up a lot of resources, spread diseases, suffer from diseases, produce large amounts of manure and urine (which can be reused of course), and are an awfully heavy thing to bring from the surface of a planet. I think any of the animals in a space station would be part of a zoo exhibit, not for slaughter and consumption. It's just too wasteful, and provides little or no benefit.

However, I did get a mission where a wily Caldari convinced me to deliver some genetically engineered livestock (cows) from one space station to another.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #51 on: 17 Nov 2014, 11:10 »

Quote
I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.

That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.

It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.

Yes, this is what I am thinking. I am willing to use my suspension of disbelief to consider that the whole thing was written from an Amarrian perspective, as a way to explain it to the Amarrian commoner.

It's from a Gallentean perspective. Cromeux Inc. are a Gallentean corporation, a division of Chemal Tech. Their only mentioned Amarrian scientist is Dr. Araham Keredin, who is described as an expert on mnemonic theories and psyche restoration (in other words he's more focused on the transfer process).

Also, Amarrian commoners are not stupid. They're quite well-educated. They don't need to be talked down to anymore than the average working or middle class person in any society. Can people please, please stop assuming Amarr is an anti-intellectual society just because it's religious, especially when the lore outright says they are highly educated? Hell, education is the main focus of the Ardishapur Family, who are the most religious.

Quote
The lower grade clones being made from 'animal parts' may refer to the fetuses of slaves, split into hundreds or thousands of 'twins' by separating the undifferentiated cells of the blastocyte/ developing fetus. A slave is, after all, considered to be an 'animal' by many Amarrians. It may be an animal that you love, like a cat or dog, but a slave is an 'animal' nevertheless.

Higher grade clones are human 'corpses' because they were once the living fetuses of free born Amarrians, who had to undergo a highly shameful and secret abortion procedure. The Amarrian position on abortion is not clear, but many of the world's religions consider it as murder today. It's conceivable that the Amarrians would also frown upon it. They do believe that flesh is sacred, after all.

I could accept that the word 'clone' is a misnomer, in the same way that not every tissue is a kleenex. It would be more like a mind transference into another person's body, and perhaps your genetic imprint could be injected into it to over-ride it.

I have no problem with believing that Amarrians would consider a 'clone' from a slave fetus to be an inferior substitute for the 'clone' from the fetus of a free born. Also, it might be necessary to have a lot of 'blank' clone bodies standing by, waiting to be imprinted..

I'd prefer actual cloning, just accelerated, rather than this idea. It seems to me like grimdark for the sake of grimdark. And Amarr really really doesn't need more of that, it's got enough dark spots already.
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Jikahr

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #52 on: 17 Nov 2014, 12:39 »

Quote

It's from a Gallentean perspective. Cromeux Inc. are a Gallentean corporation, a division of Chemal Tech. Their only mentioned Amarrian scientist is Dr. Araham Keredin, who is described as an expert on mnemonic theories and psyche restoration (in other words he's more focused on the transfer process).

Also, Amarrian commoners are not stupid. They're quite well-educated. They don't need to be talked down to anymore than the average working or middle class person in any society. Can people please, please stop assuming Amarr is an anti-intellectual society just because it's religious, especially when the lore outright says they are highly educated? Hell, education is the main focus of the Ardishapur Family, who are the most religious.

A well educated populace is an unruly populace. We know that Amarrian society is slow and plodding, with a rigid and feudalistic hierarchy. We know that almost half the society are slaves, who are only given as much information as they need to know to perform their assigned jobs. Why should the commoner be well-educated if his lot in life is only to do as the holder tells him? What good does his/ her education do if they are restricted in their freedoms? Could he use this education to make fertilizer bombs?

I don't believe that the Amarrians are anti-intellectual simply because they are religious. However, religion certainly does provide an efficient and available means for intellectual oppression and thought control.

It offers a ready made 'appeal to authority' argument which becomes the final word in any matter. Why am I a slave? 'God said so!' Perhaps this does not apply to ALL religion, but it most certainly does apply to a religion that considers slavery as one of it's main tenets.

Education and religion are not diametrically opposed. It has been the church which has carried the torch of knowledge throughout history, after all. The first Universities were created in order to educate the clergy. However, this is indoctrination as much as it is education. Ideas which were contrary to the teachings of the Bible have been hotly contested for millennia. By 'hotly contested', I mean torture, execution, prison, exile, etc.

Often enough, the only 'proof' that religion needs is that the only acceptable answers were already written down in a book which can never, ever be questioned. 'Free thinking' is actively discouraged, especially in a theocratic Police state.

Also, unlike the Bible, the Amarrian sacred writings are an entire library which is off limits to the public, accessible only to specialists. It's not a society where information is disseminated freely. So, not only can you not question the writings of the sacred literature, you aren't even allowed to read it for yourself. After all, knowledge is power.

If you want to maintain the order of Garrulock ruling the skies, Frisceas ruling the seas, Emperor ruling over holder, Holder over commoner, and commoner over slave, then why would you encourage an agricultural slave or a destitute commoner to try and better themselves through presumably free of charge state education?

I can imagine something like the Civil servants exams of Ancient China, where officials went from province to province to give intelligence tests to the commoners and determine who is most suited for civil service. A child protege of a slave might be tested and sent for special education if they were early bloomers in mathematics or music, but I think that education would be highly specialized and technical. A musician that can read and perform music but not reading or writing, or a scientist that understands chemistry, but has no knowledge of literature.   

Consider the Ancient Roman schools for the free, and the schools they had for the slaves. The way they taught the free was the seven liberal arts. Liberal is a latin word, meaning 'Of Freedom'. The seven liberal arts were grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. This was known as the trivium and the quadrivium.

The slaves were given a different kind of education, called the servile method. The slaves were taught just enough grammar to understand instructions, and just enough arithmetic to add up a grocery bill. Logic, rhetoric, etc. were considered too dangerous to teach to slaves. They were conditioned to sit still, facing the front of the room, keep quiet, and follow the directions of the instructor. They were assigned tasks to complete, the quality of their work was assessed, and they moved from room to room at the sound of a gong or bell.

Sound familiar? The Servus method is the one that is being used in High schools today. 'Liberal' has now come to mean something else, and furthermore, it has become a dirty word.

In the modern era, it was first introduced in Germany in 1888, where it was called the 'Schule' method. It started in the United States in 1908 when John D. Rockefeller said that he didn't want a society of poets, writers, thinkers and musicians, but a society of obedient, efficient workers. It is a form of education designed not to make people think, but to trust authority and follow orders without question.

Quote
I'd prefer actual cloning, just accelerated, rather than this idea. It seems to me like grimdark for the sake of grimdark. And Amarr really really doesn't need more of that, it's got enough dark spots already.

Actual cloning, at an accelerated rate of growth, is good enough for me as well. I can just ignore the biomass/ animal & human parts portion of it.

'Grimdark for the sake of grimdark' is how I consider the idea of using human corpses to make new clones.

You probably meant my explanation, but it was nothing more than a rationalization of the already abhorrent practice of institutionalized slavery. There needs to be some mental gymnastics involved to convince yourself and others that another human being is somehow inherently inferior enough to make their slavery justified.

Romans farmers would refer to their 'articulate' and 'inarticulate' animals, or in other words, the two legged talking animals with opposable thumbs, and the four legged, non talking kind. When a slave was released in Rome, they were said to have 'found their nature', i.e. woke up and suddenly realized they were human after all.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #53 on: 17 Nov 2014, 13:10 »

The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.

but that's what they are.

it's even in the amarr epic arc - there's a plot to use special biomass, to construct a clone of a person, with a remote control implant in it, and the special biomass is needed so that you can't tell it's a clone.

meat robots, everywhere.
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Jikahr

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Re: Strange question...
« Reply #54 on: 17 Nov 2014, 13:17 »

The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.

but that's what they are.

it's even in the amarr epic arc - there's a plot to use special biomass, to construct a clone of a person, with a remote control implant in it, and the special biomass is needed so that you can't tell it's a clone.

meat robots, everywhere.

Spam, spam, spam, spam,
Spam, spam, spam, spam,
Soldiers of spaam, invincible spam,
Made out of spaam, Immortal through spaaam

"Shut up! Bloody Vikings!"

(Also, spam meat robots with new hymens. Madonna has one.)
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