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[Scherezad]

If your intent is to insult or upset, those are good words and terms to use. If your intent is to have a productive discussion, they aren't useful.

Thank you, Makkal. Far more succinctly than I put it.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I don't actually agree with Schere on the suggestion that we should use more neutral terms when we actually mean to be derisive. (Edit: Though if you are using derisive language and don't intend insult... that's a much bigger problem) That said, the example of "circle-jerk" is a problematic in its own right and really defies any defense. Using the word pejoratively is just one more example of the massive overuse of sexist and homophobic language that pervades EVE.

I don't think we need to be neutal when we don't intend to be, but surely you all can find a term for "dark side of echo-chamber" that doesn't carry homophobic baggage.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Since you directly requested that I call a spade a spade, Lyn, I'll take you at your word.

When you used the word 'circlejerk' in the context you used it I perceived it immediately as, first, an attack on my corporation and then, when you later clarified your position, as a personal attack against me. This was puzzling, since I don't really know you either IC or OOC. We don't really interact outside the IGS and these forums.

I do understand the intended semantics of your use of the word, however you really should consider the unintended consequences - which is that it paints you as an embittered social outlier and immediately reduces the signal to noise ratio of the rest of your opinion. Whilst the word is wonderfully evocative  and clearly communicates your precise opinion in a forceful way, it also serves to squelch the amount of specific communication about the situation beyond this. In short, the shock value contributes to the initial impact only at the expense of the message itself.

More than this, it further marginalises you, in fact, contributing to the problem as you perceive it and pushing you even further out, since most people's reaction to an unwarranted personal attack from a stranger is to shrug and file them under 'unreasonable and hostile'.

I'll also leave you with the following thought. Popularity can't make a bad idea into a good one or a good idea into a bad one. Sometimes there are reasons other than the personalities involved - always consider the rationale before moving onto the personalities.

Take AXLVP's war declaration. With full command of the facts - that AXLVP wanted to spark some activity and RP for their members outside the wormhole and Pyre is always looking for fights - the war dec makes a lot more sense.

If you examine it wearing your best "CNN Military Expert" hat it's basically pants-on-head crazy. I'm guessing that a lot of people on the IGS were channeling Wolf Blitzer - everybody wants to be a military expert.

[Lasairiona]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

[mod]For clarity, this post was not modified by me, I accidentally clicked it to lock the thread.[/mod]

[Ciarente]

[mod]Thread unlocked.Please do not take this (or any other) discussion of 'the community' or 'Eve RP culture' as an opportunity to launch attacks on other players. The Rules do not cease to apply when the topic is meta. 'It's okay for me to be insulting because I'm totally right' is not an excuse, as is specifically discussed in the FAQ, which some people could stand reading again. Also, once again, sorry Lasairiona for accidentally giving your post a 'modified by Ciarente' tag. [/mod]

[Lasairiona]

You are forgiven 

[Uraniae]

I'm in general agreement with Schere here.  How we say things is important beyond the actual substance of the message.  At the same time I think there is also another factor to keep in mind.  That being that whenever something is written or said, it always has at least three potential meanings.  The meaning intended by the speaker, the meaning taken by the intended party, and the meaning taken by third party observers.  These three different perspectives can radically shift what the meaning of a statement is for people.  For example, I can call Degen the Brave Little Toaster or Ava an Illiterate Heathen.  In both cases the statement is part term of endearment and part inside joke.  In either case both could be seen as rather insulting statements to anyone that doesn't quite have a grasp on the context for them.  This is of course a rather IC example, but the principle applies to both IC and OOC statements.

And going over some of the most recent posts before my own, I'm going to go ahead and say this on a personal note.  In my opinion, yes we can be as offensive as we want to be, toward any target person or group of people.  I hold that belief, in this instance, for two reasons.  In no particular order, firstly, because I'm an American.  The whole "freedom of speech" ideal is something I believe in, but I also believe that it goes hand-in-hand with a capacity to be offended without taking radical action.  Secondly, I whole-heartedly believe in the following quote;

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  -Eleanor Roosevelt

To me, what that means is very simple.  Offense is taken, not given.  Even in the completely overt cases of hate speech such as racism and other forms of derogatory comments directly aimed at people in heated arguments.  But it is in the end just speech, and in the instances where it is just a random comment here or there that could offend it isn't worth getting worked up over, in my opinion.  The times action can be justified is when it isn't just a few random comments.  When it is a pattern of harassment or taken into action rather than just words over the internet.

Also...what the heck?  If you actually look at the term Circlejerk...why is that even offensive?  A couple (a bunch) of people mutually satisfying each other.  Isn't that like...every group activity people do for fun?  Group RP events...people RPing for fun and to provide other people something to RP with and have fun.  Sounds like mutual satisfaction seeking to me.  *Begins campaign to reclaim the term and make it positive.*

[Ciarente]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

In fact the mod team has discussed both the 'prepare your anus' meme and the use of 'rape' in other contexts than sexual assault (ie. 'I totally raped that Falcon').

In re: the first, the ultimate decision was that anal sex is not, ipso facto, non-consensual, and (outside the limits in the rules, specifically rule six) we do not consider references to sexual activity grounds for catacombing without other factors.

In re: the second, there was in fact a seven or eight page thread caused by me, as a poster not a mod, taking issue with the misuse of the word rape. Many accusations of thought-policing and censorship made (note: no moderator action had been taken against the post or poster in question; I had expressed an opinion on the language in it).  The moderator team has recently revisited the topic, with a view to including it within Rule 3 as 'sexist' or 'other slurs'. I remain strongly of the view that the casual use of the word 'rape' to mean 'defeated' perpetuates misogynist attitudes and rape culture, and acts as 'gatekeeper' language to let women and non-sexist men know they are not welcome - just as the use of racist language acts to let non-whites and non-racists know they are not welcome - and should be against the rules of this board for the same reasons.

[Lasairiona]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

In fact the mod team has discussed both the 'prepare your anus' meme and the use of 'rape' in other contexts than sexual assault (ie. 'I totally raped that Falcon').

In re: the first, the ultimate decision was that anal sex is not, ipso facto, non-consensual, and (outside the limits in the rules, specifically rule six) we do not consider references to sexual activity grounds for catacombing without other factors.

In re: the second, there was in fact a seven or eight page thread caused by me, as a poster not a mod, taking issue with the misuse of the word rape. Many accusations of thought-policing and censorship made (note: no moderator action had been taken against the post or poster in question; I had expressed an opinion on the language in it).  The moderator team has recently revisited the topic, with a view to including it within Rule 3 as 'sexist' or 'other slurs'. I remain strongly of the view that the casual use of the word 'rape' to mean 'defeated' perpetuates misogynist attitudes and rape culture, and acts as 'gatekeeper' language to let women and non-sexist men know they are not welcome - just as the use of racist language acts to let non-whites and non-racists know they are not welcome - and should be against the rules of this board for the same reasons.

I agree that it should not be used in that way. It sickens me when people do.

[BloodBird]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

In fact the mod team has discussed both the 'prepare your anus' meme and the use of 'rape' in other contexts than sexual assault (ie. 'I totally raped that Falcon').

In re: the first, the ultimate decision was that anal sex is not, ipso facto, non-consensual, and (outside the limits in the rules, specifically rule six) we do not consider references to sexual activity grounds for catacombing without other factors.

In re: the second, there was in fact a seven or eight page thread caused by me, as a poster not a mod, taking issue with the misuse of the word rape. Many accusations of thought-policing and censorship made (note: no moderator action had been taken against the post or poster in question; I had expressed an opinion on the language in it).  The moderator team has recently revisited the topic, with a view to including it within Rule 3 as 'sexist' or 'other slurs'. I remain strongly of the view that the casual use of the word 'rape' to mean 'defeated' perpetuates misogynist attitudes and rape culture, and acts as 'gatekeeper' language to let women and non-sexist men know they are not welcome - just as the use of racist language acts to let non-whites and non-racists know they are not welcome - and should be against the rules of this board for the same reasons.

"No man has ever been raped, and no 'white' person has ever been the victim of racism."

This is nit-picking and besides the point your making, but it is terribly annoying to be effectively told the above. It happens often when this topic rears it's head. In the context of language use, this is something you will want to improve on.

[Lasairiona]

It's not nitpicking to dislike the usage of a term that means forcible sexual contact without consent.

[BloodBird]

It's not nitpicking to dislike the usage of a term that means forcible sexual contact without consent.

I was referring to my own post related to a small part of the post Ciarente made, not Ciarente's post in general. Was it really that easy to misunderstand that?

Well, I'm not sure how to make it any clearer without spelling it out.

[Merdaneth]

I think the gist of the message here is: be careful with the words you use. Some might have unwanted (negative) meaning to others.

But people being people, everyone is always trying to create ingroups and outgroups and maneuvre themselves in the social circles. And subtly (or not so subtly) using words for that will always remain. I'm just glad the moderators have a fairly restrictive policy here.

While circlejerk sounds negatively to me, because I've only seen it mostly used in such contexts, it is not homophobic at all to me. I don't have that association.

This is also an issue in international communities like this, even through English translations there can be a lot of differences in interpretation and don't make assumption to early. For example: in my own language, 'nigger' is not very emotionally loaded, 'black people' is much more so.

[Makkal]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

In re: the first, the ultimate decision was that anal sex is not, ipso facto, non-consensual, and (outside the limits in the rules, specifically rule six) we do not consider references to sexual activity grounds for catacombing without other factors.

Right.

In regards to the image Kat posted to the Foley's thread, I believe he added the 'prepare your anus' after I saw the original, textless image and made a crude sexual remark about anal. There was certainly nothing non-consensual implied.

[Shiori]

So, what about things like "prepare your anus"? And using "rape" in a joking sense? If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.

In fact the mod team has discussed both the 'prepare your anus' meme and the use of 'rape' in other contexts than sexual assault (ie. 'I totally raped that Falcon').

In re: the first, the ultimate decision was that anal sex is not, ipso facto, non-consensual, and (outside the limits in the rules, specifically rule six) we do not consider references to sexual activity grounds for catacombing without other factors.

With nothing but love and respect for the mod team in my heart, I must say that this line of defense is completely insane. Did someone really argue that it could and should be read as something like "PREPARE YOUR ANUS on the off chance you want to, uh, experiment a bit with the fine gentlemen over here, no pressure?"

The problem isn't that it references a sex act, the problem is that it tells you to prepare for one in the imperative mood.