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Author Topic: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)  (Read 50569 times)

sham

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #135 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:48 »

This is all insanely impressive work, mate.

Love it.
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #136 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:10 »

Greetings:

If you like Napanii, check out what's going on with Modern Classic Intaki over at the ILF Forum: http://freeintaki.freeforums.org/intaki-history-f10.html. More language stuff.

Art
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sham

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #137 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:08 »

Oh also, if anyone is interested, I should still have a bunch of eve-mails sent between me and Herko when we were trying to flesh out the basics of Napanii. I think most of it ended up being about the Caldari spiritual philosophy and was obviously written, what, five years ago, but I figure for the sake of posterity it might be worth a mention.

Again, super impressive. I had a very distinct WTF-moment when I decided to google "Napanii" on a whim this morning and saw that someone had fleshed out an idea mentioned almost in passing years ago.
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #138 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:36 »

Oh also, if anyone is interested, I should still have a bunch of eve-mails sent between me and Herko when we were trying to flesh out the basics of Napanii. I think most of it ended up being about the Caldari spiritual philosophy and was obviously written, what, five years ago, but I figure for the sake of posterity it might be worth a mention.

Saisieni Sham:

Perhaps this would be something that you could post here? Or perhaps at the Eve Fiction Forums? I think it would be good to put this out there on the web, so that that information is not lost forever...just my thoughts.

Rikaato.

Anvatkaa,

Art
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #139 on: 15 Dec 2010, 14:32 »

I too am interesting in this correspondence.  Went to a bit of trouble trying to keep the foundations of this project true to whatever I could find of the early go Herko and others took at the Caldari language.
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sham

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #140 on: 15 Dec 2010, 15:13 »

This is correspondence from ingame, back when the mail system did not have a "Sent Mail" function and there was also a max-char limit ;|

Quote
Heyya mate!

Sorry this took so long. Long time offline, just coming back now to EVE.

'bout your idea!

There is a saying among the samurai, that a warrior's will has to be so strong, that no man, spirit or buddha can change his intention.

Note that it is about a man's intention, not the results. Greeks and Japanese knew very well that if the Gods are angry at you, your are fucked... but even if they can screw you, a warrior's will should be so strong that he should die facing his objective.

Perhaps this is an angle worth exploring for this tale?

Two brothers go against the flow. Kaionen because he wants to discover a secret and no god could change his wish, Juzkei because a brother's duty is to protect his kin and no spirit could drive him away from his duty.

Perhaps this is the Caldari way of giving counsel? You want to jump out of the window; instead of telling you not to, I tell you: "If you jump, I jump, because we are friends and it is my duty to stick by your side. If the fall kills us, my death will be your fault"?

Will check my evemail every two or three days from now on! :)

Cheers

Herko


--------------------
2006.05.14 02:22
'sup Herko. Had a few thoughts, figured you were the go-to guy with these after all.

I feel that the Caldari lack a Castor/Pollux story. Not like Cold Wind, but a core story of brotherhood, with that Caldari twist. I was writing a story, and this little bit emerged;

"Itima was familiar with the tale, closing his eyes as he heard the woman’s voice recite the tale of the man that went against the stream, and the man who followed because he was his brother, of how the spirits took offence and struck against them, of how the brother that was behind was washed away while the brother that was ahead waded on, how in the end he found the truth he was looking for at the source of the river. "





I was THIS CLOSE of feeling pitty for you and your headache...

...then I read about the Islands and envy almost killed me!! :P

'bout superior beings in Caldari: I really, really like the 'primal beings / spirits' approach, rather than a Greek-ish pantheon. I've been following your 'stream-flow' idea since we discussed it some time ago, and I think it fits the view many have about Caldari.

A stream is also a path, and you can always defy the spirits and try to swim upstreams.

Plus, the idea (still not developed) that your own spirit goes back to the Flow after you die appeals a lot to me.

And plus II... religions with Gods tend to have temples; temples can be rebuilt, so even if teh Gallente bombed the crap out of the Church of Whoever, it can be rebuilt in Lonetrek or The Forge or whatever.

Primal forces and nature spirits, on the other hand, are attached to a place. They are still in Caldari Prime. The Kaalakiota Mountains are already in PF, twice, and bombed by the Gallente once... those spirits gotta be really, REALLY pissed off. :)

Haven't watched EVE TV; I can't get broadband easily where I am now. Feel free to put me up to speed. :)

Have a nice Canary.

Herko

--------------------
2006.08.07 00:53
Before anything else, you'll have to excuse any incomprehensible bits this mail might contain. I'm dying of headache and am leaving the country for the next two weeks on tuesday (Canary Islands ftw), so I can't wait with writing it until tomorrah.




Humm....

Been thinking about your views (now copied in full!! :P), and it somewhat connects with a discussion I had with some guys trying to beef up the Practical faction of the Caldari (they say Traditionalists have all the good press!)

Now, the interesting twist they are putting into it, is showing the Practicals not as thieves with no scruples, but rather the guys that will rather break some rules in order to get things done, rather than following the book by the letter.

In this view, the Practicals are, in a way, they guys inside the Caldari society that have the initiative and can deal with new, unexpected things.

Kind of those 'rogues' in your view.

So, here is the questions: if the Caldari have some mystical philosophy, would you say it is shared by all Factions? (in the way that, in our world, Catholics from different political parties still believe in the same religion).

In that case, could we perhaps explain the Factions somehow linking them with their perceived roles in the spirit world?

Something like: the Traditionalists being those that respecet the most ancient spirits, the Practicals maybe having in higher regard the 'trickster' spirits, and so forth?

Or perhaps with their view of the afterlife... the goal of a Traditionalist being to completely 'melt' with his clan's spirit, but a Practical goal being to retain as much of his self as possible in the afterlife?

--------------------
2006.08.23 08:38
Damn you for not including my whole mail as a Re. Or maybe damn CCP for the character limit in eve-mails. Or damn them for not having an "outgoing" column where sent messages are stored. Two weeks down the road I can't remember anyfing I wrote.

Anyway, yeah. The Flow, to me, mostly represents the Caldari world-view that your place is predestined, the fatalistic vision of the world with that exception for truly unique individuals. The original idea for the spirits of the dead was that they would join the "megaspirits", towering entities composed of the spirits of your forefathers; i.e. a large and old Caldari family might be a seperate spirit. You remember how my first descriptions were of the spirits "playing" in the stream, throwing rocks and splashing in it. These primordial god-entities would number in the hundreds, the largest families dominating their designated spirit. This is to drive home the clan-based vision that the Caldari still maintain, although as of late it has been channeled into corporatism (You Are Your Corp), causing each individual to belong to two "clans"; his family and his employer.

As a result, the average Caldari may not be the most independent thinker ever.

Those without a "clan", black sheep and those of less savory families, criminals or simply people far too individualistic and independent for the common rungs of Caldari society, those become the fluttering, tiny lights that are the nature spirits, representing either metaphors, terms or places, trickster gods and muses, even carrions of diseases or ill fortune. Of course, conduct in former life will directly affect the afterlife for those souls, great poets that break the barriers of their own social structure becoming muses that inspire and influence art and culture for eons to come, rebels and folk heroes becoming demi-gods in their own rights, entities that control their very limited portfolio. For instance, Tovil Toba may be silently regarded as havi
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sham

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #141 on: 16 Dec 2010, 04:44 »

While I'm on it anyway...

Caveat: While I no longer feel I have any sort of ownership of this project, the work presented here (and much before it) having long since eclipsed my contributions in pitching the concept, I do have a rather strong fondness for it, which is why I feel compelled to attempt to contribute after all this time.

Early emphasis was put on creating a set of terms and concepts that could be used in passing speech. An example of this is Herko's "Kanisaka" story, which was the Caldari explanation of a Deja Vú. The word literally translated to "Rock in Stream", but is meaningless without the story behind it and the entire context of Caldari culture (and more importantly, an understanding of Caldari spiritualism).

This was all to emphasize the concept of displacement in Caldari culture; that the loss of their homeworld was more severe, more crippling to the Caldari spirit than the mere loss of a home would suggest. The ideas of the spirits (largely influenced by Shinto) was to reinforce this notion, by introducing the idea of your roots being bound to a physical place by the spiritual idea of your ancestry (again, Shinto).

This would go a long way of explaining the importance of Napanii to expatriate Caldari, as they could begin to see their ancestral language as the only true remaining link to their ancestry. Bereft of their place of birth and that of their ancestors, they had to find a way to bring a piece of that land to them, and language was the immediate choice.

Caldari society is inherently insular. It had a strong focus on maintaining cohesion within tribes, which was effortlessly transformed into a focus on maintaining cohesion within the Corporation (which are, in a way, a mere extension of the Caldari idea of familial tribalism into a capitalistic construct). We had the idea of binding all of this together into a coherent mythology, so me and Herko were tossing around ideas behind The Flow (until he disappeared).

The Flow is the stream of time and mortality in which the spirits play. For a cohesive, tribal structure to properly function, a strong sense of fatalism and reinforcement of the strength of unity is extremely useful in suppressing individual dissension from the group's overall interests.

If you go against your corporation, if you go against your nation and your family, you are alone, both in reality and spirituality. You are shunned by your people, and your soul cast adrift in the Flow, where it is easy prey to the more predatory spirits that inhabit it.

How does this go back to Napanii? Well, the language could very well reflect this, by tying both fundamental and more esoteric concepts into almost incomprehensible phrases and compound nouns; phrases that make little or no sense unless you know the story, the culture and the history of the Caldari people. Phrases that you cannot understand unless you are, in essence, a part of it.

You described Napanii as a reclaimed, constructed language, and I think that is very apt. But it was not built entirely from scratch, but rather built around surviving words and concepts that had been kept alive in colloquial usage (much like Latin, to an extent, is kept alive by mottos and obscure technical phrases).
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #142 on: 17 Dec 2010, 10:51 »

Sham...

Sounds like you have the makings of a new story in that information...since Herko is "gone"...how about it? I would be more than happy to host it over on my site...

Art
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #143 on: 17 Dec 2010, 15:37 »

You described Napanii as a reclaimed, constructed language, and I think that is very apt. But it was not built entirely from scratch, but rather built around surviving words and concepts that had been kept alive in colloquial usage (much like Latin, to an extent, is kept alive by mottos and obscure technical phrases).
Thank you for the post, sham.  I would love to see the lines of backstory development that you and Herko brainstormed back then resurrected.  What have you been up to since '06??  As for the above quoted portion, that is exactly how I hoped to portray Napanii (with some guidance from Hamish Grayson).  See below:
Quote
Originally, Napanii was a major language of the Raata period.  Chance saw that it rose from relative obscurity to widespread use by the time of the Raata Empire’s greatest height.  During that time it served as the language of both street and stage and, after a while, of the state as well.  The Raata Empire lasted for many centuries, and Napanii enjoyed some stability as a result, supported by the society of the empire and maintained by strict tradition.  With the collapse of the Raata and the fracturing of civilization on Caldari Prime, Napanii was again free to shift and change.  Linguistic historians today refer to the family of languages that emerged in the post-Raata period as the Napaniin languages, each sounding similar to the old imperial tongue but possessing its own flavor and local qualities.  Thus there was no universal language on Caldari Prime when the Gallente made first contact.  By that time, Napanii was effectively a dead language, already resigned to history and studied only for its ability to improve etymological understanding of contemporary languages.

Six hundred years of both subtle and overt cultural influence by the Gallenteans on Caldari society had left an indelible imprint on the Caldari vernacular languages by the time the Gallente-Caldari War began some two centuries ago.  A war fought for independence, transformed into a war for the very survival of the Caldari people, the conflict would leave its own imprints on virtually every aspect of life for the citizens of the nascent State.  Even the words they used to think and speak would not be left unchanged by the fires of bombardment and the traumatic exodus from their homeworld and flight from the old paradigm.  Xenophobic patriotism ran so high among the Caldari leadership during the war that they sought to give their nation an entirely new language, free of hated foreign influence, around which the new society could be built.  In Napanii they found what they sought.  What data still existed on the old language of that last great Caldari civilization was compiled and used to build something new.
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sham

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #144 on: 20 Dec 2010, 09:52 »

Sham...

Sounds like you have the makings of a new story in that information...since Herko is "gone"...how about it? I would be more than happy to host it over on my site...

Art

I guess I could write a story about a Caldari businessman who suffers severe head trauma and starts hallucinating translucent, amorphous phosphorescent blobs towering over the thoroughfare avenues, chucking pieces of mountains at him as he scurries back and forth through the crowds...

I haven't written EVE fiction for ages though, so no promises.

Quote
What have you been up to since '06?

Couple of years traipsing about and pretending to be a Vice President in IAC, then quit after that went south (I blame Tyrrax Thorrk entirely).
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Desiderya

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #145 on: 05 Nov 2011, 20:36 »

I love it! But why is the html link gone!
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kalaratiri

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #146 on: 13 Dec 2011, 14:17 »

I love it! But why is the html link gone!

QFT

The html link no longer works
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Usagi Tsukino

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #147 on: 17 Dec 2011, 19:39 »

Did anyone happen to mirror it or have it saved? I have (essentially) unlimited bandwidth/disk space on my server and would be happy to host it till a new home could be found for it.

It would be a shame to let such an awesome resource just vanish.
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Mithfindel

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #148 on: 18 Dec 2011, 06:53 »

http://web.archive.org/web/20110208183629/http://evechronicles.com/

I think that is the latest Wayback Machine snapshot of the site. Unfortunately, the Napanii Primer is not archived. The PDF is available at EVE-Files, though it may or may not be slightly outdated: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Ken/Napanii_Primer_%28July_10%29%5B1%5D.pdf. (I would assume Ken has the originals, of course.)
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Ciarente

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #149 on: 13 Feb 2013, 05:08 »

Necroing due to a debate that's popped up on both the Summit and OOCly in the last few days over the use of 'haan' as a gender neutral suffix vs 'haan/haani'.  Ken's primer goes with the gendered version, but Herko's original invention was gender neutral.

vOv Seven years is a long time and fashions in language change. Quite possibly the use of 'haan' in the original gender neutral style dates the pilot, IC, just as it dates the player.



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