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Author Topic: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)  (Read 43277 times)

Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #45 on: 01 Jul 2010, 17:58 »

I just pulled it down from EVE Files again and didn't see any problems.  It loaded fine and each page was there.  Try again?
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Zuzanna Alondra

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #46 on: 03 Jul 2010, 11:05 »

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=741.0

Made this post in the web development section to draw attention for the request for sticky on this - I figured a sticky with links to language primers in general would be neat - this one and ILF's one was mentioned in the post.  Hope that gets attention for you because this is awesome and I don't even play a caldari.

But DT speaks five languages without a translator program - pre-capsuler if you will, so I love having the ability if I liked to RP one of em.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #47 on: 07 Jul 2010, 13:39 »

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=165189
Quote
Called "S’karpur stalaandi" (literally “sharp steel spirit”) it is one of the oldest surviving Caldari traditions,

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Basic_Caldari_for_Gallente
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #48 on: 07 Jul 2010, 18:29 »

Thank you, Hamish.  I've never seen nor been referred to these before.  Looks like there is some reconciliation to be done between this Napanii primer and the "Basic Caldari for Gallente" article you've provided. 

The source Blake Rathen cites for the content of that article is this early 2005 EVE Fiction thread, much of which seems to have been either forgotten or replaced before this Chatsubo thread got started about a year later.  The latter thread was the foundation on which this project has been built.  If I had used the former, the product would be a very different beast indeed not least because the Napanii described in Herko's post has Western style verb tense/conjugation.  Of course, Herko also participated to a significant extent in the later Chatsubo thread and did not bring up his earlier work in any detail.

I don't know whether by your brevity you mean to say that you dislike the direction of this project and/or that it should have been based on Herko's early work or if you simply wanted to throw out a quick post with pertinent links.  It would be good to know your opinion better.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #49 on: 07 Jul 2010, 20:44 »

The post was short because I'm posting via my phone.   You should read through all of Herko's work including the unfinished Barriers novella he and others did. 
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #50 on: 13 Jul 2010, 15:43 »

I'm taking a look at Herko's stuff, Hamish.  Starting with the children's stories.  Thanks again for pointing me in that direction.  Do you know what ever happened to him?

Also, bumping to let everyone know that the Napanii Primer .pdf file has been updated and uploaded to EVE Files in its newest edition.  See the OP or right here for the link.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #51 on: 13 Jul 2010, 23:36 »

Quote
Napanii, as presented here, is presumed to be the most widely-spoken language in the Caldari State during the time period in which EVE Online is set.

A program of simplification, also called “Caldarification”, of Napanii reshaped the way the language was taught to children in the years following the war.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=162092&page=1#13

Quote from: Raem Civrie
The basic idea is that the Caldari have two languages; specifically Napanii and Caldari. Napanii would be the dual-vowel language that agent names use, whereas Caldari is the modern language.

Quote from: Herko Kerghans
-Having and "older" language like latin, resurrecting after the Bombing... oh man that idea ROCKS BIG TIME!!!! (had to add all the exclamation marks, had to!)

I think when Herko and Raem created Napanii their intent was for it to be a nearly dead language that had been resurrected only after the exodus from Caldari prime and is not used in everyday communication. 

The Science of Never Again chronicle suggests that Caldari citizens were still running for the transport ships as the bombs were falling on Caldari prime.  I imagine most of the surviors carried only the clothes on their backs; things like the ancient scrolls, paintings sculptures etc were left in the museums as they fled.     Of course, Gallenteans being Gallenteans would have destroyed any such artifacts that survived the bombing.

The Exodus from Caldari Prime to my mind would have meant that the culture, values and norms of pre-war Caldari couldn’t have been transmitted all that well to the next generation.  Especially with the tube child program.      Think BSG pre-cylon invasion versus life onboard the Gallatica.   The first generation to be born after that will be completely unrecognizable as the same society.    The values and traditions that stemmed from necessity of survival  in the old world don’t provide for survival in the new one.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_horizons_%28Chronicle%29

Quote
Runia didn’t know much about the history of the Caldari; she knew that Caldari Prime - the old home of the Caldari  - had several continents and that the different Caldari  bloodlines came from different continents. Back in the days when the Caldari  still occupied Caldari Prime the difference between the bloodlines was profound, not only in physical appearance, but also culturally.

Runia suspected that the beliefs that the Caldari  bloodlines were very different from each other stemmed from these facts. But when the Caldari had to leave their home planet and the long and arduous war with the Gallente  Federation erupted the Caldari  race as a whole was uprooted and thrown into a melting pot were fighting for their survival was all that mattered. The frantic decades that followed altered the Caldari  psyche forever. Traits such as discipline and loyalty came to the forefront and shaped - and continue to shape - Caldari  society into something completely new.

The Chronicle New Horzions says that the change to the Caldari culture was a "profound" one and that the post-exodus Caldari society is "something completely new."  Granted thhe story is told from the perspective of the character Runia who may herself may misunderstand the facts but I don't believe that really was the intent with the Chronicle.

The Caldari’s mere existence is threat to the Gallentean’s culturally ingrained self-image as the master race and this why they fought so hard and long during the first war to see the Caldari people extinct and why after the Yulia treat they continued to wage a war of cultural imperialism

I think that men like Matias Sobaseki, Taaiko Wiyrkomi and Orlan Mito would have understood this and helped to guide the new caldari culture towards norms and values that would help them  survive against the more the more technologically advanced, numerically larger and richer Gallente military.

Today knights and Samurai are glamorized as honorable and loyal in tales of chivalry and bushido but in reality they were nothing of the sort.  Nevertheless these fairtales are still used to reinforce certain cultural values even today.

I believe, with out any really evidence to back it up mind you, that early Caldari used a glamorized stories of the Raata Empire to teach the desired norms and values to the next generation and that Herko felt much the same way.  Thus his ”16 autumn stories to share with our children”, YR98, Lai Dai Press series and the extra exclamation marks in his above quote.

I think that his intent with Napanii was that not much of it survived, and that it's been used by that state as a tool to promote the values of discipline and loyalty and that you will only really hear it used in formal ceremonies and by high-society Patriots.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #52 on: 14 Jul 2010, 00:08 »

I'm not sure what happened to Herko...  He disappeared without a trace shortly after his Cold Wind story became a chronicle and then CCP Abraxas showed up a short time later as CCP's newest writer.   There was a lot of speculation that Herko and Abraxas are the same person and I subscribed to it for a while but now that we've seen more of Abraxas' work it just feels different to me than Herko's writing.

If it had just been a burn out I'm sure have returned to Eve by now or at least check into chatsubo.  He loved the game way too much.  I think he must died.

Or hopefully his wife just made him cut all ties to eve or she'd divorce him or something like that.
« Last Edit: 14 Jul 2010, 00:18 by Hamish Grayson »
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jul 2010, 04:04 »

Lots of important stuff.

More excellent perspective from the early days and explanations to boot.  Thanks!  I will have to rewrite that forward.

Now, how to do so properly...

At first glance, Raem Civire's description of the two languages from 2005 (Napanii as S-O-V and Caldari as S-V-O) contradicts how I've characterized Napanii here.  I don't think that's a deal-breaker, but it means I need to redefine what this "Napanii" really is.  No time to hash that out right now, but I'll be reading your links in detail and mulling that over later today.  More thoughts to follow.
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jul 2010, 19:32 »

I rethought and rewrote the forward describing the origins of Napanii and its place among the languages of the modern State.  I think this is much closer to Herko and Raem's original vision and perhaps closer to your own, Hamish, while remaining true to my own perspective.  The .pdf is updated with the changes.

Regarding Herko: it could be he is on the staff as Abraxas and he's just experimenting with different styles or is required to write certain things a certain way.  Of course, if they are the same person I can't imagine why he'd never have revealed that fact... perhaps to keep what was written out of love and what was written for pay completely separate?  Eh, speculation.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #55 on: 15 Jul 2010, 00:07 »

<3
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lallara zhuul

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #56 on: 15 Jul 2010, 02:17 »

It's nice for you to collect all this information into a file form that can be put into the neocomm therefore negating the whole thing.
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #57 on: 15 Jul 2010, 03:46 »

negating the whole thing

I assume you are referring to this.  It's worth addressing that point since I don't think we've yet done so in this thread.

Quote from: Language Translators chronicle
But in one field the language a person knows has become irrelevant and the field is that of a space captain...

...unique nature of the capsule with its sophisticated neural rigging gives ship captains the option to link their minds to all kinds of computer systems...

...steady increase in cyber-implants these translators have begun appearing outside the capsule as well...

...debate over which language should prevail in inter-racial communication a futile one.

Automatic translation does not mean that people stop learning or using languages or that they only use one language.  It only means that interpreters are out of a job.  I might argue that the widespread availability of very efficient machine translation (which that chron describes as a possibility in the EVE universe) would actually increase the diversity of languages in the world.  Nevertheless, as quoted above, the technology was last described as being available only to pod pilots.  The rest of the cluster is still making due with less effective machine translations or living interpreters, not to mention that two people of the same background wouldn't need a translator at all to communicate.  Sometimes its just fun to imagine how they might do so.

The neocom doesn't negate the whole thing, it simply makes it easier for pilots to conduct operations.  When they unplug and de-pod, it's back to the slow-thinking, untranslated world.
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Mithfindel

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #58 on: 16 Jul 2010, 14:58 »

With the tech in EVE, basic language hardwirings or translation implants would be available to most wealthy people, capsuleers or not - the capsule isn't a requirement. Knowing languages would be for those cases where the translators yet don't know the language (i.e. an ancient language or a regional one, not one of the major languages) or, simply, as an art. Specially for Caldari, the art would be important, if furthering the themes in Herko's writing. (Consider tea and swordsmanship.)
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orange

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #59 on: 17 Jul 2010, 22:38 »

Finally getting into reading this.

Thank you Ken, well done.
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