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[Havvie]

Nikita spends four hours going over adoption law, rages, proceeds to use Havvie as punching bag

bleh, adoption is hard. >_>

But I'm so huggable. D:

[scagga]

Nikita spends four hours going over adoption law, rages, proceeds to use Havvie as punching bag

bleh, adoption is hard. >_>

But I'm so huggable. D:

[Boma Airaken]

So since I already got my formal warning, and really don't want to make good on a ban, I am going to be polite here and just ask a very simple question.

If you don't like kids, have an aversion to kids, had bad experienced as a kid/with your parents, whatever, why would you want to post in a thread where a bunch of people are basically celebrating and discussing them and the nuances of their existance?

Honestly, I am just curious.

I got all shitty with Havvie, and I apologize for not utilizing any sort of tact, but if kids aren't your speed, why post?

-curious happy dad

[Lillith Blackheart]

There's a difference between not liking kids and not liking obnoxious kids that people should have raised better.

Better way to put it:

There's a difference between not liking kids and not liking bad parents.

Not all parents are bad, most are pretty good, but there's a lot of bad parents out there and a lot of examples of bad parenting to be made, and what Havvie touched on was a prime example of it. Obviously not every kid shouting in a restaurant or grocery store or whatever is the result of a bad parent, but that is easily able to be told by how the parent reacts.

And that's what it's about.

A Good Parent has a kid who's well-behaved in public. He won't sit there and wail like a demon. If he does the parent will put a stop to it or take the kid elsewhere to put a stop to it (edit: or at the very least not subject everyone else around them to the problem). (Exception: If the kid ends up hurting him/herself. That is a good reason to wail. Wanting a snickers bar is not.)

A Bad Parent has an obnoxious little shit that the parent spends more time battling for dominance, and losing, than doing whatever they're trying to accomplish.

Those of us who have opted not to have kids don't necessarily dislike children (I'm not a fan of young children, but meh, that's just me, I'm not against them either), for instance my girlfriend loves Children. Absolutely adores them. . . .

. . . .so long as she can give them back to their parents when she doesn't want to play with them anymore.

Thing about it, Boma, is that throughout the whole statement Havvie made and my defense of it (You didn't just get shitty with Havvie, either, but whatever) none of that was about the kids themselves, even though they were the topic.

That was all about bad parents.

Edit: Thing about it is, we're critical of bad parenting even though we don't have kids because parenting is a SACRIFICE. Someone made a decision to give up a lot of the shit they normally would do to have the responsibility of raising another human being, which is exactly the reason we did NOT opt to have children. It's upsetting to see happen.

[Zuzanna Alondra]

You know - the interesting thing about this thread is on almost every post I have wanted to comment, but stepped back and thought carefully and decided, "I'll wait until tomorrow."  By tomorrow someone has already made a post to deal with whatever thought I had.  But so much of it seemed so relevant that I hope this blob of text helps explain.

It's an interesting *almost* self moderation.

I actually am grateful for Havvie's posts - and alot of the others.

Too tired at the moment to properly quote folks.

But it is absolutely true kids are being raised now a-days to believe they are special snowflakes.  And more and more people are having less and less children.  In some families, it's not just couples only having one kid, but in some families it's only *one* of the children having grandchildren - meaning that one child is being spoiled by not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts... so forth.  In America at least there seems to be this feeling of more about the "me" and screw the "we" - to the point that children don't think about others as they should.

I personally worry very much about my own parenting style - I worry about creating a special snowflake mentality myself.  As someone that planned to have 2-3 kids with the person I had been with for*ever* (I want to say almost 10 years off and on, but at least 7 living together) who is a slow mover when it comes to getting married and having kids - even when all goes to plan I'm likely only having one - my turtle - Lisa.

What this means is that I'm now a single mom with only one child - my child is the world to me.  I'm also the only single mom in the family - so everyone is (as they have finally accepted I'm *not* getting back together with my ex) coming forward to help.  I happen to live in a small enough neighborhood where my family all bought property here that the example above of a "tribe" helping out with the child is very true.  My sister lives with me, my half sister is my neighbor, my grandma lives a block down the road, two aunts a stones throw away and my mom a five minute drive.

With all these people right there, always playing with her - it's going to be hard to not spoil her.

Also - chicken pox vaccines don't work!

Here's what really happens... the kid gets the shot - so when they catch the chicken pox itself it isn't nearly as bad, just a few bites that look like maybe a flea bit them and they are perhaps a tiny bit cranky, but not sick enough to get sent home from daycare. *But* his teacher who only had a mild case of the chicken poxs gets it so bad that because she's an adult a normal clinic won't see her and she gets sent to the ER to get a note proving she has the chicken pox to keep her job since she *refuses* to go to work with the chickenpox and then spends two weeks in bed.

Ironically since this thread is a spin off of the thread Miz made  - the chicken pox made it to where I woke myself up scratching.  So in desperation in trying to find a way to sleep - we needed a way other then socks to keep me from scratching.  So - hence the trip to the adult store to get the fuzzy restraints - I got tied down to the bed at night until the chicken pox went away. Chicken pox *is* a right of passage better done at five then at 20.  Happy birthday - your strapped to the bed itching to death with a fever.

I think my random two cents to this is done.  Carry on.

Oh - and tooth number 3 is coming in.

[Lillith Blackheart]

But it is absolutely true kids are being raised now a-days to believe they are special snowflakes.

And that is a horrible disservice to the children, in my opinion. I was not raised to believe I was a special snowflake. I was raised to believe I was an individual in a sea of individuals, and that I should be myself, but in no way was I going to be a "winner" all the time. People lose, sometimes. Losing is important. Learning how to lose is the single-most important thing that can be taught to a child, because if you win all the time, you never really learn anything.

Nothing teaches someone more than losing.

And more and more people are having less and less children.  In some families, it's not just couples only having one kid, but in some families it's only *one* of the children having grandchildren - meaning that one child is being spoiled by not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts... so forth.  In America at least there seems to be this feeling of more about the "me" and screw the "we" - to the point that children don't think about others as they should.

Actually, that is only half-true. It's not about the "me" generation as much as people believe (well, the snowflake crap is, but the less kids isn't).

That has everything to do with education. There are numerous statistical proofs and sociological studies that have shown a clear inverse relationship to level of education and number of kids, most especially with women.

In the US we have less and less children because we are more and more educated in comparison to a large number of nations (surprisingly). Women especially. It's clearly shown over decades of study that women who go to secondary school tend to have less children (one or two at most) and have them later in life.

My girlfriend and I are spot on the statistical norm, highly educated (though I didn't go to school for it), no intention of having children. My girlfriend is one of those insane people with three degrees.

Education is quite clearly the key to solving the over-population issue the world is facing. Moreso than anything else. The problem is that many developing countries, where over-population is a serious issue, do not value educating the women, mostly due to the fact that they find themselves in situations often where they can only afford to send one child to school, and the daughter is going to lose that one.

Here's a great TED talk on the topic: http://www.ted.com/talks/sheryl_wudunn_our_century_s_greatest_injustice.html  (It's slightly offtopic as a whole, but it's on topic with what I'm talking about, to clarify)

[Havvie]

There's a difference between not liking kids and not liking obnoxious kids that people should have raised better.

<Snip>

This is exactly what I was trying to say. It's not so much I hate kids as I hate annoying bratty children who, to use the old cliche, think the universe revolves around them. Out in public I'm calm, collected and rather pleasant. In private with my friends IRL it's a roll of the dice as to if I'm calm, hyper or morose (in EVE you guys only see either srsbzns "I need an effing drink" IC!Havvie, or the Cloud Cuckoo Lander OOC!Havvie and none of the other extremes of my wildly varying personality)

Also: I was rather tongue-in-cheek with my "rant," but it seems that didn't go over so well and/or was interpreted as genuine malice/dislike.

[Kala]

If you don't like kids, have an aversion to kids, had bad experienced as a kid/with your parents, whatever, why would you want to post in a thread where a bunch of people are basically celebrating and discussing them and the nuances of their existance?

Honestly, I am just curious.

I got all shitty with Havvie, and I apologize for not utilizing any sort of tact, but if kids aren't your speed, why post?

If you want everyone to agree with you on a particular topic, a livejournal community would probably be more appropriate than a discussion forum.  You seem to think a dissenting opinion is trolling the happy baby thread - I don't think this is the case.

Though granted, my contribution was something of a troll   Which I intended to leave at that, but am a compulsive forum whore :/ so my stance is the following:

I don't particularly feel like I'm going to have kids ever. Definitely not at the moment, despite my friends from high school becoming mothers   which makes me feel really fecking old

That said, I think I'm in the 'don't like obnoxious kids' camp. The ear splitting piercing screams and demanding brats I could live without. However, I don't think I can actually generalize to 'not liking kids'... there's been plenty of times when I've been fine with kids being around me...

The other day I was in a coffee shop with a friend and a little kid from another table loudly piped up "what does 'die' mean?" We gave eachother 'oh shit' looks, but it turned out she meant hair dye, and was referring to the fact my friends hair was pink ^^ She asked if my hair was dyed too, and the father said yes it was. I didn't catch what she said next, but he replied "I think they just want a quiet cup of coffee, don't you?"

I found that exchange amusing/endearing rather than annoying. And I thought the dad handled her questions well.

And when I went to see my friends baby, that was also fine. (He puked on another friend, but not on me *\o/*) He was a cute little critter who looked quite happy and interested in everything and wasn't always bawling his eyes out.

(though that said, I was happy to interact with him from a distance, and when nappy changing occured I made myself scarce >.>)

So I guess, much like the rest of humanity, there's a small subset of kids I can actually get on with for a short period of time, and the rest I don't like  

[Zuzanna Alondra]

Nikita spends four hours going over adoption law, rages, proceeds to use Havvie as punching bag

bleh, adoption is hard. >_>

Isn't is funny that it's harder to take in a child that was given away/abandoned/whatever reason the parent doesn't want the kid, then it is for CPS to take a child away from some parent that just got knocked up and is *not* a suitable parent at all?

Don't give up hun.  And at least in the US there is a huge tax break to help with adoption costs incase you didn't know about that.  In the short term - try babysitting?  That's how I got my baby fix before Lisa.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Isn't is funny that it's harder to take in a child that was given away/abandoned/whatever reason the parent doesn't want the kid, then it is for CPS to take a child away from some parent that just got knocked up and is *not* a suitable parent at all?

No. No it is not funny that it is harder to prove you will be a good parent than it is to take away a child from someone who is a bad parent.

It is as it should be.

[Casiella]

No. No it is not funny that it is harder to prove you will be a good parent than it is to take away a child from someone who is a bad parent.

It is as it should be.

On this, we agree.

[Saede Riordan]

might be sort of relevant

[Zuzanna Alondra]

Mildly side track:

Quote from that clip: "You know what kids that don't have any trauma end up being... boring!  Accountants..."

What's wrong with accountants?!  Geez... and I totally had trauma.  Bleh.

And to above, I meant "It's it funny?" in a snippy tone because I find it troubling that it's hard for good people to adopt when there are so many children needing adopted.

[Casiella]

The trick is picking out which people are good, and more specifically able to love adopted children as they deserve.

One of my great regrets in life is that I couldn't quite convince my wife that we should adopt. She wanted to try for our "own" first, and when that turned out to be absurdly easy for us, that ended the opportunity. This is of course mollified by the fact that, hey, I have two wonderful children that I love more than life itself. But still, I will always wonder how I would have been as an adoptive dad.

I like to imagine "pretty good".

[Boma Airaken]

I guess what frustrated me so much was at the end of the day, creating a 100% non-obnoxious kid is flat out impossible.

When they are young, like in the 1-3 year old range, they are gonna flip the fuck out. Period. There is nothing anyone can do about it. They are in a rage about their inability to communicate their needs or wants. And I still have to get my grocery shopping done. So everyone who doesn't like it can fuck the fuck off, because I can't fix the problem and I have shit to do.

If you guys are talking about the 4-8 year old crowd, I am with you 200%. If you can't get your kid to learn basic manners by then, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with your motivation and/or desire and/or ability to be a parent.