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[BloodBird]

I still have faith that the Caldari State will pull out of this and emerge stronger for it. If we can get rid of Heth and his overt anti-FederalGallente bullshit that's currently riding him like a demonic jock high on it's own hype, and replace him with someone who is still as much in favor of keeping the war live (got to get Caldari Prime back somehow, after all) but is more able to deal with, and thus express, the issues of running the State and the intra-State relationships that we have been deprived of for the last 5 years. Then, I'm sure we will see more diversity and genuine interest in running around being loyal to the State because it will become a freaking human society again, as opposed to this current joke of nationalistic bullshit and blind zeal in the popular party lines, where there is no problem and any internal issue is Fed propaganda or overblown minor issues or the Fed's doing to begin with.

I recall the days when I had to be careful with my RP in portraying my character who supposedly 'Understand' the Caldari sufficiently to be able to argue and converse with them and produce some honest mutual "I see where you are coming from but we will remain at odds anyhow" - because you know, conflict! As opposed to this current nearly brain-dead type of antagonism we get today, where any attempt to argue with a Caldari seem to fall on deaf ears because it's "in" for Caldari toons to not give two shits about understanding the conflict and supporting your side anyhow. It's so very easy for me to present the Fed side of any argument and for the most get ignored on purpose.

I love an intelligent, noble and capable enemy I can relate to, and while there are a number of these kinds of characters around most seem to have given up on any kind of finesse at all. The State I recall produced intelligent, cool, collected, driven, noble and loyal people who could be utterly ruthless when called for. To me it seems much of this is gone, replaced by what I would describe as a carbon-copy provist - a chest-beating, hating-on-the-fed-is-my-middle-name, raging tool good only for fighting their enemies and keeping any subtlety or character-build internal and intra-corp. I don't even feel like convoing any of these toons to strike up a conversation - what's there to talk about, how much my character is wrong and his view-points are utterly irrelevant because Heth said so?

Meh, I'm ranting. Likely some of these issues might be my own jaded viewpoint and not entirely accurate anyhow. But I do feel like since FW started the whole dynamic around the intra-Empires RP has simplified and devolved into something entirely different than what it was pre-FW. Finesse is lacking here. How about a debate or argument or even a civilized conversation around, say, the subtle points around the State-Caldari Prime relationship and the pro-Fed Caldari nations that stuck around, as opposed to the typical accusations and tendencies to ignore opposing arguments when convenient.

Anyhow, slightly more on topic, I was glad to be able to actually show up - eventually. Lost a BS after my second crash (Hi Desiderya and crew, you likely got my kill-mail ) but it was worth it showing up and being part of it all. I actually gathered a dozen ships there in system, among them 4 battleships. I was prepared, to say it simply, but ultimately losses were far fewer than expected. While the first crash made sure I did not get on the Titan kill-mail (a little sad for this, it would have been the only titan kill-mail worth getting on at all) I did get to play my part, so I can't bitch to loudly about it. My only annoyance with the event itself was the Goon brigade showing up to kill anyone they could for the lulz. Almost got snared on the gate with them, but did get out. Silver-lining: They were to busy killing random guys on the gates to get to the titan, and lost out on the kill-mail. The tears in local was utterly delicious.

[Desiderya]

I find it hard to judge the storyline before it is concluded.
You can complain all the way, then a twist or revelation happens and suddenly it all makes sense.

It's difficult to have a motif to latch onto as Caldari at the moment aside the simple concept of duty. You do what needs to be done, because failure is not an option.
While we, the players, can not influence  how CCP portrays the background we damn well can lead by example. The majority of interaction we have in our RP sphere is with other roleplayers, where a reputation can be build. If you want to lean back and bitch about CCP ruining it for you - go on. I doubt it'll increase your or anyone elses enjoyment, though.

[Lyn Farel]

Of course you will not be able to erase history, even though biased historians of any country will always try to do so, or to minimize it. If we could do so, we would already have erased all traces of most of the worse things of human history.

But if they were able to change it in the first place to get what we have now, it is only natural that changing it again is as well as possible. I don't get the issue where a nation gets through a bad time. Until now, and that's where I disagree and will always disagree, the State was maybe butchered PF wise (like most factions btw), but it was still the side always winning and getting all the merit. In any case, governements change, cultures change, and nations and people evolve. Unless you are looking for unrealistic points of view.

When they change, particular times happen. It happened IRL with nazy Germany (Modern Republic to Fascist despotism), it happened IRL with the Revolution of 1789 (Monarchy to Modern Republic), it happened with Rome (Monarchy to Ancient Republic, and then to imperial dictatorship), etc. Some of these lasted long, others, not so much (like the 2 first ones). Do not understand me wrong, I am not making an apology of how TEA portrayed things, I think that most people agree. I say that it can happen, and it has already happened in PF, by the way. Zaragram, the Moral Reforms, Tribalism in the Republic where it was a democracy before, of Duvalier's regime.

What if I have always played a pro democracy Minmatar since the beginning ? I know that most of these have gone, but would I too not be frustrated ? I understand why you would be, but that's why I said that I see it with a completely different eye. It does not make your RP invalid or wrong. It just makes the political position of your character different. You happen to disagree with the changes or the culture where before you were in the mainstream.

So what ? That's RP material. If you play in a world like Eve and expect to see things never changing, that sounds a little naive to me.

_________

Also, I would like to point out that what CCP are doing is what most people have been waiting for : actually addressing what people have complained for years about PF and TEA. I am not sure that most realize that they do it mostly for us, the RP community and lore aficionados. I find it rude and disgraceful to be so vitriolic now, when it has just even started, especially after having complained so much time that nothing was done and that they had abandoned us. I also find it quite hypocritical, even if done unconsciously. Asking for something and then spitting on it with not much reason is yes... bad form and not very respectful.

You will be able to do it after if you still are not happy, no problem.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

My problem with Falcon's attitude is that, once again, there's a focus on drastic change for the sake of shocking events instead of simply tweaking the knobs here or there. There's no reason why the megas couldn't throw heth out right this minute if they wanted to; their military forces are superior to anything he could wield, even if he got the Navy on his side, and certainly there must be a lot of people in the Navy who feel very unsettled with the last five years like Svetlana does. If they merely asserted their authority, refused to recognize the CPD and Heth as having any power, and then pursued their own agenda, that would have been far more interesting and compelling to me than a fight over Caldari Prime -- but it's not as flashy for the marketing folks, and that's who this was for, make no doubt about it.

Now, to be fair, this is the death knell for Heth, I'm pretty sure. But if he ends up just getting replaced by some other singular leader, even if it's someone with great policies Svetlana loves, I'm not going to be very happy about it. And the loss of Caldari Prime pretty much dashes any hopes of a compromise with the Federation, at least for a generation.

Furthermore, the event also comes off as a bit of a damp squib because if this was all the Fderation had to do to get rid of the titan, why was it so much of a threat five years ago that the Federation couldn't fight them there? It seemed like a cakewalk for the Gallente Navy, and there were no repercussions for them. If Falcon wanted to get rid of the Titan, he should have done it in a way other than brute force -- because if brute force was all it took, it just makes the Federation look (again) like incompetent cowards for letting it sit there for 5 years.

[BloodBird]

Not sure if your points about bitching when uncalled-for was addressed to me Lyn, so I'll clarify for the sake of it - I miss the finesse in RP that was present before, and don't like the current bluntness and simplistic approach. I still have hope that things can change for the better though, and I'm sure this event will be a good start in the right direction.

[orange]

the Caldari State ... was ... a place that gave rise to some very competent, intelligent and able leaders like ... Gariushi

IIRC, Gariushi rose first through the ranks of the Guristas and then blackmailed Ishukone into making him CEO.  He is a product of the Guristas, not the modern State.

the intra-State relationships that we have been deprived of for the last 5 years

YC111 Corporate Warfare
Black Rise Recent Events

I could not identify a SuVee corp to wardec at the time.

It's so very easy for me to present the Fed side of any argument and for the most get ignored on purpose.

I see two reasons for this. 1) The argument isn't new, as in I can link to logic provided previously to explain my position.  2) There is no logical argument to back a Caldari position (even if there may have been in the past).

Also, I would like to point out that what CCP are doing is what most people have been waiting for : actually addressing what people have complained for years about PF and TEA.

Could have started with a simpler problem and had a "low-threat" live event where the fires of Malakalen are put out.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

The other issue with with Heth's decline only happening after suffering an embarrassing defeat like this is that it makes it look like the Caldari objection to his regime is because he was a failure, not because he was wrong. This has been compounded by the fact that we haven't seen a strong opponent to Heth in years -- maybe as far back as Mens Reppola when he took over Ishukone, though he's been silent since then (much to Svetlana's frustration).

This is an issue I have with almost all of the faction storylines at the moment. Aside from the Amarr, where you have Kador and Ardishapur who actually seem to have agendas of their own that don't really match that of the Empress, there's very little visible division among the factions. I think you'd see the Caldari far less upset with the way things are going with Heth if it was clear that those who opposed him had high-level allies within the Caldari power structure, biding their time until they could finally strike. But really, there's been almost no sign over the last several years that anyone else has the same objections we do.

[Sakura Nihil]

I'm still hoping for an outright Caldari Civil War.  One that pits the established Heth bloc against resurgent Megas and people who supported Heth until his one signature achievement, CP, was made irrelevant.  Of course, fat chance of that happening.  Now, any internal dissent within the State will certainly be tied to "Fed interference", and suppressed harshly.  Still hoping Heth gets assassinated though.

Also, check me on something.  Was Yanala a baseliner or capsuleer?  Because Sak's dancing on her grave in the IGS at the moment, and she'd be disappointed if the Admiral came back from the dead.

[Morwen Lagann]

Capsuleer. Supposedly said so in local a few days ago.

[Lyn Farel]

Not sure if your points about bitching when uncalled-for was addressed to me Lyn, so I'll clarify for the sake of it - I miss the finesse in RP that was present before, and don't like the current bluntness and simplistic approach. I still have hope that things can change for the better though, and I'm sure this event will be a good start in the right direction.

Not really adressed to you.

Anyway I agree with all of you and the concerns raised in that last page.

[Samira Kernher]

I'm still hoping for an outright Caldari Civil War.  One that pits the established Heth bloc against resurgent Megas and people who supported Heth until his one signature achievement, CP, was made irrelevant.  Of course, fat chance of that happening.  Now, any internal dissent within the State will certainly be tied to "Fed interference", and suppressed harshly.  Still hoping Heth gets assassinated though.

Also, check me on something.  Was Yanala a baseliner or capsuleer?  Because Sak's dancing on her grave in the IGS at the moment, and she'd be disappointed if the Admiral came back from the dead.

Pretty sure she's a capsuleer. But I can imagine her having turned off or will turn off her clones and ritual suicide after waking up. I really don't expect the commander of Caldari Prime's defense fleet to want to stay among the living after defeat, capsuleer or not. Caldari honor demands her terminal resignation.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Yeah. There's no way that she survives. Either she commits suicide, or she "commits suicide."

[orange]

I'm still hoping for an outright Caldari Civil War.  One that pits the established Heth bloc against resurgent Megas and people who supported Heth until his one signature achievement, CP, was made irrelevant.  Of course, fat chance of that happening.  Now, any internal dissent within the State will certainly be tied to "Fed interference", and suppressed harshly.

Interesting story, not so interesting from a player perspective.  I do not see it creating any emergent player conflict.  I think the Mordu's Evac Operation showed this clearly.

[Sakura Nihil]

Yeah. There's no way that she survives. Either she commits suicide, or she "commits suicide."

Good.  I think Sak has the following opinion of her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzVFugFcUto

[Saede Riordan]

Yeah. There's no way that she survives. Either she commits suicide, or she "commits suicide."

It could be interesting to see her Put to The Tea.