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[Myyona]

Nonono. I am just thinking about the effort Tony G went through to make the under dog top dog and vice versa. Really, in the early days of EVE everybody picked Caldari because they were described as the 'awesome' faction while the Gallente most certainly were not. Things have really changed since the collection of body parts of Misu Baniya.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

All Caldari were also Achuran, because, you know... best stats.

[kalaratiri]

Sad I missed the big bang, but I had a great time doing the updates while it was running.

Hope you all enjoyed it 

[Norrin Ellis]

Nonono. I am just thinking about the effort Tony G went through to make the under dog top dog and vice versa. Really, in the early days of EVE everybody picked Caldari because they were described as the 'awesome' faction while the Gallente most certainly were not. Things have really changed since the collection of body parts of Tunai Moran.

Caldari got the most attribute points in beta, and when the third bloodlines were introduced for each nation, Achura got the best base attribute distribution (charisma is a dump stat).  This was the reason to roll Caldari.

[Desiderya]

Enjoyed the clusterfuck. \o/

[K_Wiroshoda]

Nonono. I am just thinking about the effort Tony G went through to make the under dog top dog and vice versa. Really, in the early days of EVE everybody picked Caldari because they were described as the 'awesome' faction while the Gallente most certainly were not. Things have really changed since the collection of body parts of Tunai Moran.

My apologies for misunderstanding. I get you now.

[Gesakaarin]

Whilst I enjoyed participating in the event in Luminaire even though I pretty much knew it was a foregone conclusion that the Titan would fall despite all the hype along with the TiDi, I have this sinking feeling that the aspects I always wanted to explore with the Caldari and the State -- the depth of culture and the complexities of its corporate politics -- will continue to remain on the back-burner because any dialogue of importance will now have to revolve solely around Caldari Prime.

Added to that, there's the fact now that Caldari RP is stuck in a strange limbo where it's difficult to reconcile the aspects of its nationalism and militarism with more moderate aspects such as its corporatism or progressive politics (for the Caldari anyway). I don't know, it's getting a bit annoying being part of a faction that seems to be unable to get it together, is unstable politically, and no matter which direction you try to go within it you're faced with the potential risk of having the rug pulled from right underneath you when there's yet another game-changing point of revisionism.

Still, I had fun shooting at everything that moved all things considered.

[Vikarion]

I'll try to restrain myself from being overly gleeful at being, essentially, proven right about the event. But I am. 

<very definitely my opinion>
The interesting thing about this event is that this is, essentially, the destruction of the only positive point of Caldari RP left. There was a reason so much of Caldari RP has revolved around CP for the past year or three, and that was largely due to the fact that the Caldari had nothing else going for them. No one wanted to fight for Heth - one might fight for a smart villain, but not a silly and stupid one - and the megas are essentially kaput. Some of us, such as Dex, tried to continue viewing the Megas as independent entities, so CCP made sure to destroy that.

In addition to all the things that TEA took away from the Caldari as primary virtues (turns out that the Gallente are better capitalists than the Caldari, better producers, better traders, better entertainers, have a more powerful military, etc), articles have portrayed the Caldari economy as in essentially a state of collapse, while still others have made it clear that Caldari society is often violent against minorities, has a caste system, is anti-gay, is racist in significant ways (no marriage between bloodlines), and so forth. I believe that all of these, with the possible exception of the homophobia, are post-TEA, and some of them are post-TonyG. Given other chronicles and articles, the only sense of honor the Caldari do have seems to be that of fighting to the death. This has created a unique hybrid: close to the Imperial Japanese in fanaticism, to the Nazis in ethics, and to the three Stooges in competence.

Therefore, to come back to the point at hand, it will be interesting to see what other Caldari loyalists can latch onto as a motif or motive. Currently, revenge seems to be a common inclination. Not the best motivation, in my opinion, especially as it doesn't really give you something to fight for, especially when our opponents are portrayed as all that is good and right. Also, you aren't going to get it. There's nothing short of a time machine that can fix the Caldari faction at this point, and you will constantly be at the mercy of your opponents going "well, what about this?" Others seem to be going with calls for peace and grief - probably more productive, as it gives your character an excellent way to bow out of participation.

As for me and my character, I can't realistically switch sides, and after having interacted with Gallente FW, I wouldn't play a game alongside them, uh, ever. However, if I ever do have the chance to transfer SP from one character to another, Vikarion is probably biomass. In the meantime, I'm going to work to increase cynicism about the storyline and CCP's involvement with it, since it turns out that criticizing what I see as irritating and unfair is actually a lot of fun. I don't currently plan to engage in any future live events, since they'll almost certainly be just as rigged as this one was. Even if they are about the Caldari trashing the Gallente (yeah, right, and when pigs fly), I don't take much satisfaction from CCP devs winning my battles for me.

</very definitely my opinion>

[Lyn Farel]

That's why I am somehow glad that the Titan was removed from there. It was the main thing making the whole RP situation stuck and not evolving.

Also, I do believe that TEA making the Caldari suddenly going all extremist patriots wanting to grab Caldari Prime back was one of the best mistakes done to the faction in itself. It moved the whole Caldari RP around Caldari Prime instead of their megacorporate fluff and intricacies we all know. It moved the ruthless megacorporate stuff to extremely nationalistic (I say nationalistic, not patriotic here) fascism all justified by a single piece of drama : CP.

CP even progressively tended to be some kind of RP strawman blackhole sucking out every other RP to inevitably make people come back to the CP issue. I would even argue that CP was the Caldari/Gallente slavery variant, to which everything eventually tended to revolve around.

The same way TEA shifted the Minmatar focus even more on slavery (where before it was a clear separation between the Republic and Freedom fighting).

And I believe that's what they try to change.

[ 2013.03.22 20:53:24 ] CCP Falcon > I'm a bit disheartened to be fair.

 [ 2013.03.22 20:53:55 ] CCP Falcon > The reaction from a certain cross section of roleplayers.

 [ 2013.03.22 20:56:52 ] CCP Falcon > People need to understand that if they feel the Caldari State is broken...
 [ 2013.03.22 20:57:00 ] CCP Falcon > then there needs to be CHANGE to fix it
 [ 2013.03.22 20:57:04 ] CCP Falcon > massive change....

We may agree or not with the "destroy everything before rebuilding", which has its flaws and cons (like providing a lot of RP drama and potential, but also severely harming RP targeted blocs). But that remains a valid approach, and I am utterly confused by all the fuss about it too since it has barely begun. I find it highly irrational to read so many negative comments not about how things could have been done better, but how it is actually murdering the faction even more, without even knowing the end.

[Vikarion]

The problem is that Caldari RP isn't like a building. I can get what CCP Falcon is trying to do, IF he is trying to do that (which I have my doubts about), but it won't work, in my estimation.

The story and lore is more like a stream. You can change things - dig the channel deeper, blast holes in the banks - but you can't just shove what you want, where you want it. If you make the stream larger (add more lore) you can't just yank that away when it turns out you've ruined a fishing spot. And if you decide to dynamite the stream because you don't like what you've made of it, you aren't going to end up with a stream, you're going to get a lake.

CCP Falcon may have thought that he was getting rid of a troublesome rapid when he decided on the CP event, but the reality is, in my estimation, that he's turned it into a deep whirlpool for remaining Caldari RPers. Not only do we have precious little to seize onto, but if our characters are realistic at all, they're going to be intensely focused on the issue of Caldari Prime (and possibly revenge for it) for a long, long time. Negative events, after all, tend to be much more motivating than positive ones.

On the other hand, Falcon has also passed up some excellent opportunities for getting rid of things most RPers hated. For example, almost everyone would have been happier if Heth actually did get assassinated. It would have been "Oh, wow, guess those DUST soldiers really are a threat. Well, let's mourn the chief executor for...oh, lookie, shiny over there." Heth would have been dumped and forgotten, and then we could have had an interesting storyline where the Megas jockey for position in disassembling the CPD. And if Falcon had to throw the Favorite Faction a bone, then maybe the Megas, in their quest for profits and power, decide that they really don't feel like keeping much of a force at Caldari Prime, thus paving the way for a surprise recapture. That would have put Caldari players in the interesting position of being loyal to a nationalist cause, or loyal to the megas, without the incredibly annoying "sudden civil war" and "impossible to stop execution of protestor" storylines.

And I just thought that up in 20 minutes of writing a few posts. Considering that others have far more at their disposal, it's hard not to see the current destruction of the Caldari faction as both unnecessary, intentional, and possibly malicious.

EDIT: Also, I'm not the only Caldari RPer to note that Falcon has been remarkably reticent to talk about precisely what kind of change he wants to enact. For all we know - and it would certainly be in line with past decisions - CCP wants to turn the State into a society that enslaves minorities for the master race, a military junta, or the second installment of Sansha's Nation. (I exaggerate slightly. You get the idea, however.)

[Lyn Farel]

Sorry but I am not much into that kind of analogies. It wasn't my intention to do one in the first place.

And I see things with a radically different eye. Anything can eventually be corrected or re arranged. I do not see why Caldari culture couldn't see the errors of their (new) ways and get a brutal public push to get back to the good, old and stable values. Stating the contrary seems quite... narrow minded to me. Or just like a way to willingly refuse that the possibility exists.

That's precisely why we do not know what is the end goal that "complaining" about it already really sounds irrational to me.

However yes, I agree with your own scenario with Heth assasinated. It could have been nice too. But I will wait for the end before making judgement calls all over the place.

[Vikarion]

And I see things with a radically different eye. Anything can eventually be corrected or re arranged. I do not see why Caldari culture couldn't see the errors of their (new) ways and get a brutal public push to get back to the good, old and stable values. Stating the contrary seems quite... narrow minded to me. Or just like a way to willingly refuse that the

That doesn't work very well when everyone already has access to the fiction. The problem is that a lot of the new PF and events aren't really things you can yank. For example, the Caldari demographics article doesn't talk about what the Caldari have become, it talks about what they are, and what they have done. Same with TEA, and other events. Those things have gone on to be incorporated into stories, posts, conversations, character backstories, bios, blogs, and more, as well as the common knowledge of the player base.

You can't just yank those things or change them. If CCP pops in tomorrow and says "hey, actually, the Caldari weren't racist", then we still have all the evidence that they were: all the arguments on IGS, all the copies of TEA, TBL, and T1, and we then have to retcon all the things that the Caldari purportedly did in part because of their xenophobia and racism.

That's why I say that the Caldari lore is essentially ruined: it's become a jumble of massively contradictory facts, hysterically unrealistic narrative, incredibly unbelievable characters (Broker, Heth, etc), and it keeps getting worse. It's not now like the Caldari never had CP, no, the Caldari got it in a very bad trade, and now they lost it in another one. And in both situations, the Caldari have been painted with the blackest of moral brushes, with the whole "nuke the planet" thing being emphasized as much as possible. Even if you do want to tear down and rebuild, this isn't how you do it. This is sowing the fields with salt.

[Saede Riordan]

maybe this is just me, and I'm naively optimistic, and have more faith in Falcon then I should. But Vik, have you considered the possibility that the death of the titan was the only part of the event that was on rails, and that what happens to CP will be up to the DUST players fighting on the surface, and the events supposed to be happening there all weekend?

[Gesakaarin]

I think a problem with State RP at present is that whilst the Caldari State may have real or perceived flaws it was also a place that gave rise to some very competent, intelligent and able leaders like Sobaseki, Tovil-Toba or Gariushi who were able in their own ways were able to maintain the existence of the State either through their own principles, ruthlessness, political nous and talent.

I can understand some of the disappointment with the Caldari scene because the supposed tradeoffs of playing in what could be described as an authoritarian, militarized and conformist society was that it had the benefits of being highly productive, led by extremely talented individuals, promoted social conscience, whose people believed deeply in their own culture and ideals, and that was strong enough both economically and militarily that nations much larger like the Federation or Empire didn't want to trifle with Caldari.

The current portrayal of the State seems to be at odds with what has been presented in the actual fiction. The current State is one in a slow decline due to the corruption and incompetence of its leaders that collectively drove it into an economic recession and whose exploitative labour policies combined to create widespread unrest that culminated in Heth and the CPD who really aren't much better because in their haste to create a cultural revolution in the State accomplished little but empty rhetoric because they probably booted anyone with brains or talent in the Military or corporate management who didn't prescribe strongly enough to their jingoistic nationalist rhetoric resulting in people getting jobs where although they were great fork-lift drivers probably had little idea about economic policy, administration or strategy -- but at least they're loyal to the regime of the New Meritocracy.

And now as a Caldari RP'er it's like all you get is economic decline threatening collapse, incompetent or corrupt leadership, a failure of a military, rabid ultranationalism combined with populism, a centralized authority that is accountable to no one and rules through force, violence and intimidation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that so long as it was consistent with what had been presented to players, instead the situation is like telling people the State is the Roman Republic when it was kicking ass in Africa where instead it's the Republic in the time of Sulla and Caesar -- except the Caldari Dictator is an incompetent leader who got lucky because CCP wanted a war.

So now there really isn't much else to do except be a loyal Caldari legionnaire putting Gallic tribes to the sword and find enjoyment in that alone because it remains yet to be seen if the State will continue its decline or pull out of it. It's not like there's any alternative elements or personalities in the State that CCP will actually permit to support and are legitimate enough for loyal Caldari to do so anyway.

[K_Wiroshoda]

I thought EVE lore was supposed to be contradictory, if it were to accurately reflect on humans in general.