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[Silver Night]

I'm glad to see events coming back, and I don't see the Caldari losing Caldari Prime as evidence that Caldari RPers are getting the short end of the stick. I've felt pretty much from the start that in terms of a plot device, the occupation and the Titan were not realistic, at least if the State leadership was minimally competent - I always thought it was more an anchor attached the the neck of Caldari RP, making it hard to go elsewhere. This resolution may not have been the most flattering, but it is a resolution of that particular piece of the TEA legacy - and I think it gives everyone in the State interesting hooks for RP. If you're Anti-Heth, it is Heth's fault (and makes a good reason to come out a bit more publicly against him, now that he can be accused of 'losing Caldari Prime'.) If you are pro-Heth, or even Heth-neutral, it is a call to arms against the 'aggression' of the Gallente.

Frankly, OOC, I'm not sure I can think of a lot of ways the situation could have been resolved better, from my viewpoint. IC is a different matter, of course. But I think this puts us on the path to if not the old status quo that some of us remember fondly, then a new era. And I think it is particularly impressive given the restrains were no doubt 'flashy event' and 'dust related' that they managed to get it done this way.

All that, plus we are actually getting events again, which is beautiful. Also, the actual integration with Dust (which I wasn't so sure about) was pretty awesome - at least as far as RP that happened afterward and whatnot. I'm glad to see Dusties showing up on the RP scene.

Anyway, for my money (which CCP has a lot of by this point) they are doing things pretty much right, I'm happy to see it, and I hope the continue to fix the mistakes they made in the past.

The post-event RP has been pretty cool, reminds me a lot of the stuff we did post Malkalen (except unlike there, the big events part didn't happen over DT with no player interaction). I hope that the official events are successful in creating a lot more sort of 'collateral' RP that is connected but not necessarily part of the main arcs like that.

[Caellach Marellus]

I'm not claiming that Falcon is responsible for TonyG's stuff, I'm saying that the stuff that has come out since Falcon became the face of Eve  story is precisely the same kind of stuff we got from TonyG, and the statements coming from CCP Falcon ("things will get better", "we have tons of amazing stuff in store", "we have to fix some things before we can be fair", etc) are the same exact things we got from TonyG.

And yes, CCP Falcon is not TonyG.

Quoting the relevant parts.

But you're saying you know he's not TonyG, but you're treating him with outright hostility in your posts for using a same generic sentence that TonyG used with zero knowledge of the longterm scenario?

Seriously, Vik you need to sit back and let things unfold, because right now you've no idea what's coming but you're already acting like you hate it.

[Vikarion]

I'm not claiming that Falcon is responsible for TonyG's stuff, I'm saying that the stuff that has come out since Falcon became the face of Eve  story is precisely the same kind of stuff we got from TonyG, and the statements coming from CCP Falcon ("things will get better", "we have tons of amazing stuff in store", "we have to fix some things before we can be fair", etc) are the same exact things we got from TonyG.

And yes, CCP Falcon is not TonyG.

Quoting the relevant parts.

But you're saying you know he's not TonyG, but you're treating him with outright hostility in your posts for using a same generic sentence that TonyG used with zero knowledge of the longterm scenario?

Seriously, Vik you need to sit back and let things unfold, because right now you've no idea what's coming but you're already acting like you hate it.

You quote what I wrote, but then make a statement a reading of my quote would have refuted. To repeat, "I'm not claiming that Falcon is responsible for TonyG's stuff, I'm saying that the stuff that has come out since Falcon became the face of Eve  story is precisely the same kind of stuff we got from TonyG". In other words, the "hostility" is due to the fact that there is no effective difference between the portrayals either Dev has painted of the factions.

Take the current event. CCP could have avoided - simply by a lack of action - making the Caldari look like genocidal maniacs, but instead they went to every effort to make sure everyone realized that the Caldari intended to glass the planet, but the Gallente got there just in time. Bonus points for having them also shoot down the CONCORD spectator. I'm surprised they didn't also have a few kittens crucified.

That's not "grey and grey". That's not nuanced. This is "the Gallente are totally awesome and wonderful who rescue the planet just in time, and the Caldari are nutty genocidal space nazis who, nonetheless, are less competent firing a Titan superweapon than a first time titan pilot". So no, I'm not faulting Falcon for TonyG's stuff. I'm faulting Falcon for his own storytelling. Because, so far, he appears to be working very hard to out-TonyG at portraying the Caldari as Always Chaotic Evil.

[Gorion]

I want a civil war so bad. The amount of material generated would be gargantuan. Does the liberal bloc break off and make a new state with the Mordu's and Intaki Separatists? Does the megacorps have a huge war to see who is top dog again to stack the CEP with their choices? While anything is happening during the rush to fill the power vacuum do the Guristas move harder into the Mito constellation? So many options.

[Bong-cha Jones]

Meanwhile, the narrative being argued rather successfully is that she could have glassed the planet but chose, rather deliberately, not to.  Given that we all know, and that Falcon knows, it doesn't take a doomsday weapon that long to spool up, what conclusion might we draw from the Shiigeru taking so long to do so?

[Silver Night]

I would suggest that equating Heth with the State will end with unhappiness if the goal here is (in part) to undo Heth. Heth is presumably the one who gave the order, after all. And Heth != All Caldari.

[Caellach Marellus]

I'm not claiming that Falcon is responsible for TonyG's stuff, I'm saying that the stuff that has come out since Falcon became the face of Eve  story is precisely the same kind of stuff we got from TonyG, and the statements coming from CCP Falcon ("things will get better", "we have tons of amazing stuff in store", "we have to fix some things before we can be fair", etc) are the same exact things we got from TonyG.

And yes, CCP Falcon is not TonyG.

Quoting the relevant parts.

But you're saying you know he's not TonyG, but you're treating him with outright hostility in your posts for using a same generic sentence that TonyG used with zero knowledge of the longterm scenario?

Seriously, Vik you need to sit back and let things unfold, because right now you've no idea what's coming but you're already acting like you hate it.

You quote what I wrote, but then make a statement a reading of my quote would have refuted. To repeat, "I'm not claiming that Falcon is responsible for TonyG's stuff, I'm saying that the stuff that has come out since Falcon became the face of Eve  story is precisely the same kind of stuff we got from TonyG". In other words, the "hostility" is due to the fact that there is no effective difference between the portrayals either Dev has painted of the factions.

Take the current event. CCP could have avoided - simply by a lack of action - making the Caldari look like genocidal maniacs, but instead they went to every effort to make sure everyone realized that the Caldari intended to glass the planet, but the Gallente got there just in time. Bonus points for having them also shoot down the CONCORD spectator. I'm surprised they didn't also have a few kittens crucified.

That's not "grey and grey". That's not nuanced. This is "the Gallente are totally awesome and wonderful who rescue the planet just in time, and the Caldari are nutty genocidal space nazis who, nonetheless, are less competent firing a Titan superweapon than a first time titan pilot". So no, I'm not faulting Falcon for TonyG's stuff. I'm faulting Falcon for his own storytelling. Because, so far, he appears to be working very hard to out-TonyG at portraying the Caldari as Always Chaotic Evil.

Really? I'm seeing the current narrative as Heth clinging onto his regime by doing everything he can no matter how hard it goes against the State, which is even rebelling against him and paying for it with their lives.

That's not whitewashing the State, it's painting an element of the State and setting up for a longer story.


And really, if you thought the Gallente were all sunshine and roses during TonyG's era, remember we had a Caldari Titan in Luminaire, the fleet getting it's arse handed to it with wreckages that are still around, the Broker framing one of the Federation's best Admirals and painting him a War Criminal who's name is forever shamed and spoken of as if he were a monster. A bumbling president who couldn't keep the corporations in check and lost control leading to his resignation, and a snivelling little shitehawk who runs a secret police that totally goes against everything the Federation is suppose to stand for.


But sure, go ahead with thinking the Federation gets all the good stuff.

[Vikarion]

Really? I'm seeing the current narrative as Heth clinging onto his regime by doing everything he can no matter how hard it goes against the State, which is even rebelling against him and paying for it with their lives.

That's not whitewashing the State, it's painting an element of the State and setting up for a longer story.


And really, if you thought the Gallente were all sunshine and roses during TonyG's era, remember we had a Caldari Titan in Luminaire, the fleet getting it's arse handed to it with wreckages that are still around, the Broker framing one of the Federation's best Admirals and painting him a War Criminal who's name is forever shamed and spoken of as if he were a monster. A bumbling president who couldn't keep the corporations in check and lost control leading to his resignation, and a snivelling little shitehawk who runs a secret police that totally goes against everything the Federation is suppose to stand for.


But sure, go ahead with thinking the Federation gets all the good stuff.

I don't want to derail the discussion, because then it gets locked, so I can't really talk about why I think you are wrong. However, if you like, message me with everything the Gallente got shafted on in TEA, and I'll give you 2-4 things the Caldari got just like it, or worse.

As to the narrative regarding the Titan's superweapon, I am totally bullshitting on the IGS. Everyone knows that CCP couldn't actually fire the superweapon at the planet without some recoding, so they were just doing their best to make it look as bad as possible. I probably shouldn't be bullshitting ICly, since the goal of the Devs is the highest kilonazi rating for the Caldari as possible, but it looked like some people were having fun claiming to have saved the day, and I wanted to ruin it for them. 

And Silver, Word of God from CCP and from much of the Caldari articles is that your average Caldari supports Heth and his aims - I even have an evemail from a Heth-opposed actor confirming this. So, in other words, all Caldari are evil bastards.

[Silver Night]

I suppose we will see if that remains the case when it goes from 'taking back the home world' to 'trying to glass the homeworld'. It's possible it may, but I'm willing to wait and see. Regardless we know that even though he enjoys substantial support it isn't universal - particularly among corporate leadership.

[Samira Kernher]

Meanwhile, the narrative being argued rather successfully is that she could have glassed the planet but chose, rather deliberately, not to.  Given that we all know, and that Falcon knows, it doesn't take a doomsday weapon that long to spool up, what conclusion might we draw from the Shiigeru taking so long to do so?

I had hoped this was the case, but analyzing the logs showed that she actually announced being unable to fire.

I'm inclined to think it was sabotaged. Going by the belief that this entire buildup, from the planet riots to the naval assault, has been a Black Eagles-orchestrated special operations campaign, a sabotage explains just why the Federation was willing to risk an attack. I really don't think the Federation would have risked an attack if they didn't have some way of preventing the Levi from firing. A sabotage is the most likely explanation for why they finally decided to launch an attack.

My personal conclusion is: Leftover militants on the planet from the One Day War arm and train populace. They are somehow are able to get into clandestine contact with the Federation outside the planet, and begin planning to initiate an uprising once BE gives the word. BE meanwhile works on installing/developing agents in the Caldari State (something Heth seemingly got wind of, going by his sudden scrambling to take down Fed elements within the State), one of whom happens to get installed on the Leviathan, in doomsday operation. With that operative able to sabotage the Leviaathan and insure it could not bombard the planet, BE triggers the plan, ordering the insurgents on the planet to rise up, sending in mercenaries, and pulling off a portion of the Fed fleet for "naval exercises" in preparation to jump them back into Luminaire space once the time is right.

Whether CONCORD was involved in the plan or just happened to at the wrong place at the wrong time I'm unsure. But the rest all reeks of pretty classic unconventional warfare, and it follows the Seven Step Operational Model pretty much to the letter. Unconventional warfare is, of course, BE specialty, and if this is what happened, it shows how badass BE are. BE are what the Provists should have been, ruthless and competent. Of course, this really supports Vikarion's comments about Gallente always getting the better deal. <.<

So while I'd have loved for Yanala to have actually willingly withheld, and I think that would have been the best outcome for the Caldari as it would have given them the moral highground, it's seeming more likely to me that the Levi's ability to bombard was simply sabotaged.

There's also been Caellech's argument that the Leviathan had moved out of range, and that's why it wouldn't fire, though that then puts us back into the boat of, "why did the Federation choose to risk the bombardment?" (it also brings up the question of why would Yanala have attempted to fire while out of range, which would have been an incredibly noobish thing to do). Sabotage is the one thing that both explains why the Levi wouldn't fire and why the Fed chose to finally launch an assault.

[Vikarion]

Unconventional warfare is, of course, BE specialty, and if this is what happened, it shows how badass BE are. BE are what the Provists should have been, ruthless and competent. Of course, this really supports Vikarion's comments about Gallente always getting the better deal. <.<

So while I'd have loved for Yanala to have actually willingly withheld, and I think that would have been the best outcome for the Caldari as it would have given them the moral highground, it's seeming more likely to me that the Levi's ability to bombard was simply sabotaged.

SITYS 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'm not sure about the sabotage to the Titan necessarily being proven, and if it were proven there's still the strong possibility that a Caldari faction might have been behind it - what with the difficulty of getting the right agent to the right place at the right time.

Regarding the insurgency on Caldari Prime - it is far more likely that the continuous low level resistance was indigent and that the recent escalation of violence was not only funded and equipped from off-planet, but that it was actually carried out be Gallente Special Forces groups directly.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

The sabotage theory is nearly impossible; the Oblivion was already activated once - against the CONCORD battleship. For it to have been sabotage the act would have had to have been committed after that event, a mere 1-2 hours before it started trying to fire on the planet. That, or the nature of the sabotage would have meant that the weapon had to be fired at least once before it broke down, but the Gallente had no way of knowing it would first be used on CONCORD unless they staged that as well.

[ArtOfLight]

One could argue that the Gallente vessels were focus-firing the sub-systems of the titan and targeting areas that were vital to the operation of the doomsday weapon. I know we can't do that in the game but there's nothing saying it couldn't happen.

Essentially, since the used reason for failure was reactor failures, the Gallente specifically targeted the reactor chambers on the ship with high-impact anti-matter rounds, resulting in a field disruption of the reactors and eventual meltdown. Just a thought.

[Samira Kernher]

One could argue that the Gallente vessels were focus-firing the sub-systems of the titan and targeting areas that were vital to the operation of the doomsday weapon. I know we can't do that in the game but there's nothing saying it couldn't happen.

Essentially, since the used reason for failure was reactor failures, the Gallente specifically targeted the reactor chambers on the ship with high-impact anti-matter rounds, resulting in a field disruption of the reactors and eventual meltdown. Just a thought.

Not a viable strategy for a weapon that takes only ten seconds to fire and had been spooled and loaded ahead of time. You'd have more luck designing an anti-missile system that is able to shoot down the missiles after they've launched than somehow breaking through the shields and disabling the reactors fast enough to prevent launch. Of course, the Federation could have counted on the Shiigeru firing one shot (treating the first shot as acceptable casualties), and then getting it disabled in the ten minutes before it can fire a second shot. But there's no way the Federation fleet could have prevented it from firing at least once without some kind of outside interference (sabotage, willful hesitation, range, etc).

Although, I could possibly see the fleet having designed some form of advanced tracking disruption that could somehow affect a Titan (which would explain why the Shiigeru needed to move closer to the planet, as its standard optimal range would have been negated). Like sabotage, development of such would have given the Federation reason to believe it could prevent a launch, and therefore encouraged them to take the risk of launching an assault. There was no indication of anything like this during the event, though.

Either way, all speculation at this point. There's a lot of things it could have been, but not enough details are available to be able to come up with a concrete theory yet. Just hope we'll get a news report giving us the facts.