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[Lyn Farel]

Well I am still quite mitigated on the "suitable males are rare". Maybe there are slightly less of them than females, and even probably, but to the point of being rare... ? Or maybe they just are unsuitable to the very specific tastes of fermale characters ? Or maybe males RPers playing female characters are looking for something very specific ? Or even something that doesn't match the male present demographics ?

Understand me, I am not trying to say that your point is not valid (quite the contrary) since it mostly stems from personnal experience, but my personnal experience is pretty explicit on the matter. Nobody is ever going to tell me that Lyn is a femme fatale or anything closely related. You can't make someone more prudish and stuck up on such a matter to the point to run away rather than face even the slighest hint of romance, and sometimes even when it does not even concerns her. And yet she has had several people interested in her (Vince will confirm how it ended).

All were males. Most of them, interesting and suitable ones. She even almost started a relation one year ago, so I am not sure what to say.

Weirdly enough also, no female proposals or interests so far, period. Or well hidden because I have not noticed any so far.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Someone mentioned ERP earlier (Nico iirc).

I think that Saede mentioned 'ERP' first in a response to a post that can be read to imply that 'space lesbians' are overly promiscuous and mere tools for cheap cyber-sex. Also, that this is a bad thing.

I think that might actually be worth a discussion on its own (we may have a few existing threads already, in fact), but the tl;dr on my perspective there is that I strongly prefer to avoid it, except in the very rare cases where it will provide useful character or plot development, and all involved parties agree with that fact. Otherwise, if it's clear that hanky-panky-kiss-and-spanky is going to happen and it's not going to include/involve anything that would affect anyone in ways that need to be dealt with or hashed out, just fade to black and call the scene a wrap. No need to waste time if you already know the outcome. (Pun retroactively intended.)

While I think that one can have a discussion on it's own about it, I think that the discussion about 'space lesbians' is tied into it. There also seems to be the idea that people playing such 'space lesbians' to play out their fantasies are by necessity people that see only objects of desire in woman, not subjects having such desires. I think that is a prejudice that is certainly grounded in (probably bad) experiences, but a prejudice none the less and not even necessarily a well founded one. That's why I chimed in on it: I think it's not warrented to label chars as 'space lesbians' if one means that those are men who just want to objectify woman for their sexual gratification.

As some people in here said, maybe behind the front of that lascivious 'space lesbian' stereotype there is not a woman-degrading pervert, but someone young who is trying to find his/her sexual identity. One can't see what the people behind the chars think and feel, yet some people seem to have little problem with ascribing ulterior motives without even trying to check the individual case.

[Morwen Lagann]

She might have - to be fair I started from the posts I was already planning to respond to (Kat and Cia's) and worked my way backwards, and yoinked the first one I saw, which ended up being yours.

I don't disagree that they are tied in some manner, but the whole cyber/ERP debate isn't exclusive to this subject in particular, which is my reason for suggesting that perhaps if we're going to wander off to talk about that explicitly, a second thread might be in order.

Also to clarify the position made a couple paragraphs before that - I'm not saying that those people are doing it wrong.

What I am trying (and possibly failing) to suggest is that whether those players/characters are doing anything wrong or not, the people whose characters are not like them are being associated with their actions, and they do not care for it. If someone wants to use EVE RP as a conduit for exploring their own sexuality, they should go right ahead and do so - I would agree that in many cases it's a safer environment to experiment in. However, these characters can be difficult for many people to take seriously. And for people whose characters aren't defined primarily by their sexuality, it is highly irritating to be lumped in with those characters because people decide to go "oh, they're not straight, MUST BE A SPACE LESBIAN", and then never actually pay attention to the actual attributes that define the character, and only focus on that.

If someone wants to have a character like that, they should go right ahead. It would just be nice if people would stop associating the two kinds of characters with each other when they really aren't anything alike.

[Rhiannon]

The term I'm more familiar with is "mensbian"/"mansbian" a portmanteau of "men" or "man" and "lesbian" and refers to a man (almost exclusively heterosexual) playing a lesbian character. Unfortunately its exceptionally rare for heterosexual cisgender men to have any interest in playing a realistic homosexual character. Usually the reasons can be boiled down to three:

• I want to have something nice to look at while I play my game. (yay women reduced to sex objects)
• Girl-on-girl action is super hot. (yay women reduced to sex objects some more)
• I want to play a girl so I have something nice to look at, but trying to roleplay a relationship with a man is kinda gay and gross. (lol homophobic masculinity)

They're not really playing, or even trying to play a homosexual character. They're playing a 'lesbian' character straight out of porn. Which is precisely the reason why most of them engage in ERP or just straight cybersex.

However, in their defense:

Women are known to have much more fluid sexuality than men do, so it actually makes sense that you'd at least see more bisexual women than you would men and real-life statistics back this up. Unfortunately most mensbians don't bother trying to play a bisexual woman because of #3 above.

I actually don't consider "space lesbian" to be completely synonymous with mensbian. There's some (okay, a lot) of overlap to be sure, but unfortunately even a character that's intended to be bisexual will tend to get pigeonholed by others as being lesbian, simply because there's a more varied and numerous pool of female suitors than male ones.

[Saede Riordan]

- One way to reverse this seemingly omnipresent trend is to get more male characters into the game, more types like Pieter, Stitcher, or Tibs (if he wasn't a toaster).  These guys tend to be magnets for female characters because they're generally pretty polite, intelligent, and even-keeled, and if there were more of their types in the game, I suspect the "Space Lesbian" label would apply to far fewer female characters.

This is definitely very true in my character's case, curse you Nicole Graves for getting to Stitcher first.

Saede is interesting. She's a fairly sexualized character all things considered. Just as a product of her upbringing, she's rather openly promiscuous and openly bisexual. She often comes off as closer to space-lesbian at least partly because the above is magnified in that context to some degree, but she really isn't picky. The other thing about Saede is that I tried to play her as being rather agendered. I figured if I was going to play a queer character, that I would do them and myself justice and play them as queer in more ways then just who they'd sleep with.

Something that as a member of the LGBT community that I find a bit =/ in regards to people who would often fall into the space lesbian trope, is that they seem to just play standard heteronormative women, who just happen to like other women. There's a lot more to being LGBT then that. So someone's playing a lesbian character. What I want to know if thats the case are why aren't there any butch lesbians? Why aren't there genderqueer and agendered characters?

I feel that the typical person we associate with being a 'space lesbian' is less an actual person and more an consolidated amalgamation of fantasies. I think though that there is a better term for that sort of player then space lesbian, that applies to more of the character's that fit that trope, and has the added benefit of not making lesbians specifically, look bad "Mary Sue."

[Katrina Oniseki]

Something that as a member of the LGBT community that I find a bit =/ in regards to people who would often fall into the space lesbian trope, is that they seem to just play standard heteronormative women, who just happen to like other women. There's a lot more to being LGBT then that. So someone's playing a lesbian character. What I want to know if thats the case are why aren't there any butch lesbians? Why aren't there genderqueer and agendered characters?

I don't play Katrina to be a lesbian, so I don't put much thought into trying to play an accurate lesbian. I play her to be a Caldari beset on all sides by the conflict between personal ambition, duty to the collective good, emotional trauma, and smaller character quirks. That she's with another woman is a side note.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

She might have - to be fair I started from the posts I was already planning to respond to (Kat and Cia's) and worked my way backwards, and yoinked the first one I saw, which ended up being yours.

I don't disagree that they are tied in some manner, but the whole cyber/ERP debate isn't exclusive to this subject in particular, which is my reason for suggesting that perhaps if we're going to wander off to talk about that explicitly, a second thread might be in order.

Also to clarify the position made a couple paragraphs before that - I'm not saying that those people are doing it wrong.

What I am trying (and possibly failing) to suggest is that whether those players/characters are doing anything wrong or not, the people whose characters are not like them are being associated with their actions, and they do not care for it. If someone wants to use EVE RP as a conduit for exploring their own sexuality, they should go right ahead and do so - I would agree that in many cases it's a safer environment to experiment in. However, these characters can be difficult for many people to take seriously. And for people whose characters aren't defined primarily by their sexuality, it is highly irritating to be lumped in with those characters because people decide to go "oh, they're not straight, MUST BE A SPACE LESBIAN", and then never actually pay attention to the actual attributes that define the character, and only focus on that.

If someone wants to have a character like that, they should go right ahead. It would just be nice if people would stop associating the two kinds of characters with each other when they really aren't anything alike.

+1

[Vieve]

Well I am still quite mitigated on the "suitable males are rare". Maybe there are slightly less of them than females, and even probably, but to the point of being rare... ?

I'm curious about that belief as well.   Granted, my characters might have scarred some of them for life, but sheesh, they kept their hands off Amarr and Minmatar, so there could be plenty left to go around.

[Gesakaarin]

I decided to play a Caldari and a homosexual only because I thought it would be a good idea at the time (curse you vodka redbulls) to explore what it's like to be sexually repressed due to the apparent latent homophobia prevalent in the State.

Yes, sometimes even self-loathing and never matching the ideals of your peers can be an interesting concept to try and play out.

[Lyn Farel]

I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.

I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.

Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?

I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.

I decided to play a Caldari and a homosexual only because I thought it would be a good idea at the time (curse you vodka redbulls) to explore what it's like to be sexually repressed due to the apparent latent homophobia prevalent in the State.

Yes, sometimes even self-loathing and never matching the ideals of your peers can be an interesting concept to try and play out.

That's actually a good justification for it, I think, that can lead to interesting things.

I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.

[Ember Vykos]

... For some, like Kat (or so it sounds, do correct me if I'm wrong), it's wasn't a planned aspect. It just sort of evolved, ...

You are correct.

It was also the same for Simca. And to reference something Kat said earlier I didn't really take him under my wing, or at least I never really saw it that way. The relationship Simca had with Katrina was my first foray into the whole ERP/lets try a relationship in a game aspect of RP. Simca had done a few things with Seri, but that was pretty much it and I did flirt with the idea of trying a relationship with him. From my POV SimKat evolved quite naturally even if a bit fast, but I think that's mostly due to it being a game and not a 'real' relationship.

I doubt I will have such a relationship on my new character when I return, or even continue one on Simca if I were to bring her back, which I may do in an OOC fashion to use for missions/incursions while my new main is in most likely gonna be in FW. SimKat was a lot of fun for me and I don't regret it, but I've explored that aspect of RP and while I won't say explicitly it wont happen again it's not something I'm looking to have on any future characters be them male or female. I wanted to try a relationship out to see what it was like since I never did so with Ember, and the ERP kinda came along with it. It was fun and it also filled a void in a way since it had been a long time since I'd been in an actual relationship, but I never started out with that intention.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.

I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.

Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?

I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.

Well, studies would imply that while lesbianism and bisexuality among females is more accepted in western societies and thus publicly more present, homosexuality as well as bisexuality and homo-erotic encounters at least are more prevalent phenomena among men than females. (See for example the famous Kinsey studies and their findings on bisexuality and homosexuality.)

This goes together with males being in general more sexually active and society leaning to high sexual activity being more accepted among males and less so among females.

So, while apparently it's okay for males to be openly promiscuous with females, there seems to be social pressure not to be open about any homo-erotic desires. This might be a reason why people in a RP environment choose to take up the chance of the lesbian relationship that as allows them to to explore homo-eroticism and being open about it in a way that is more acceptable to their (non-internet) social environment and maybe circumvents barriers of shame that have been formed by said social pressure.

Also, in my observations, there is a prevalence among 'space lesbians' - whether it be the stereotypical ones that have no defining other characteristics or those that happened to end up 'accidentally' being one - for strong, assertive (either sexually or non-sexually or both) behavior. While in the case of the 'stereotypical space lesbian' the resulting overt sexual promiscuity is often attributed to males wanting to turn females into sexual objects, I think that given the broader picture one as to acknowledge that this is (merely?) the expected form of expressing 'strong' and 'assertive' behavior patterns with a "character" that focuses on sexuality. Therefore I rather see a longing for woman, that are - sexually as well as otherwise - self-determined and active, represented in the 'space lesbian' slice of our community. I think that's far from "objectifying women in pursuit of sexual desires".

[Rhiannon]

I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.

I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.

Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?

I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.

Well, studies would imply that while lesbianism and bisexuality among females is more accepted in western societies and thus publicly more present, homosexuality as well as bisexuality and homo-erotic encounters at least are more prevalent phenomena among men than females. (See for example the famous Kinsey studies and their findings on bisexuality and homosexuality.)

This goes together with males being in general more sexually active and society leaning to high sexual activity being more accepted among males and less so among females.

So, while apparently it's okay for males to be openly promiscuous with females, there seems to be social pressure not to be open about any homo-erotic desires. This might be a reason why people in a RP environment choose to take up the chance of the lesbian relationship that as allows them to to explore homo-eroticism and being open about it in a way that is more acceptable to their (non-internet) social environment and maybe circumvents barriers of shame that have been formed by said social pressure.

Also, in my observations, there is a prevalence among 'space lesbians' - whether it be the stereotypical ones that have no defining other characteristics or those that happened to end up 'accidentally' being one - for strong, assertive (either sexually or non-sexually or both) behavior. While in the case of the 'stereotypical space lesbian' the resulting overt sexual promiscuity is often attributed to males wanting to turn females into sexual objects, I think that given the broader picture one as to acknowledge that this is (merely?) the expected form of expressing 'strong' and 'assertive' behavior patterns with a "character" that focuses on sexuality. Therefore I rather see a longing for woman, that are - sexually as well as otherwise - self-determined and active, represented in the 'space lesbian' slice of our community. I think that's far from "objectifying women in pursuit of sexual desires".

+1 to all of that. I wasn't sure how to address the socialization aspect of it in my original post.

[Morwen Lagann]

I decided to play a Caldari and a homosexual only because I thought it would be a good idea at the time (curse you vodka redbulls) to explore what it's like to be sexually repressed due to the apparent latent homophobia prevalent in the State.

Yes, sometimes even self-loathing and never matching the ideals of your peers can be an interesting concept to try and play out.

Suddenly, a lot of the OOC jokes you've been making make more sense.

I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.

I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.

Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?

In my case, Morwen's actually my first non-heterosexual character over a number of years of RPing in various games. Done a number of 'straight' characters both male and female, some of whom had relationships, but this was the first time I explicitly said from the beginning, "don't make any note of it, just let it come on its own through RP." I'm not really surprised by the result but I don't mind it either. Learning experience and all that.

I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.

This. So much.

I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.

I'd like to see it done without being a caricature of the shit going on in the real world. Unfortunately that might be an unreasonable thing to hope for. :\

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

That said, there are lots of strong-and-assertive-outside-of-sexuality women of varying orientations running around ingame (I can think of a handful who frequent the Summit offhand, for example). They may just not be immediately visible depending on where/when you RP.

EDIT - Thought that goes back to my original post. A lot of the strong and assertive women may choose to look on "their side of the aisle" so to speak because many male characters don't come across as having personalities that are compatible with women who are strong and assertive and stand up for themselves. To me, I think one of the things we're lacking more than any other is male characters who, while strong and assertive in their own right, are not intimidated by and are able to respect women who are the same way.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.

I'd like to see it done without being a caricature of the shit going on in the real world. Unfortunately that might be an unreasonable thing to hope for. :\

It's bound to be 'space-catholic child molester' drama, really, whether the person depicts the char as such or not. Unfortunately.

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

That said, there are lots of strong-and-assertive-outside-of-sexuality women of varying orientations running around ingame (I can think of a handful who frequent the Summit offhand, for example). They may just not be immediately visible depending on where/when you RP.

EDIT - Thought that goes back to my original post. A lot of the strong and assertive women may choose to look on "their side of the aisle" so to speak because many male characters don't come across as having personalities that are compatible with women who are strong and assertive and stand up for themselves. To me, I think one of the things we're lacking more than any other is male characters who, while strong and assertive in their own right, are not intimidated by and are able to respect women who are the same way.

I agree.