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Author Topic: "Space Lesbians"  (Read 28908 times)

Katrina Oniseki

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #45 on: 03 Mar 2013, 20:19 »

... For some, like Kat (or so it sounds, do correct me if I'm wrong), it's wasn't a planned aspect. It just sort of evolved, ...

You are correct.

Sepherim

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #46 on: 03 Mar 2013, 20:25 »

Haven't had the right friends in the right places it seems. Poor man.

He did have, but it would have started an internal war between the Ministry on one side, and the Imperial Families and pod pilot corps on the other. Not a road he was willing to take, or he'd have become the enemy of the Empire he always fought against.

Quote
That is outright cruel. Does he receive female visitors? ;)

Hahahah, too true. Nope, I don't think he receives visitors at all. I thought on a couple occasions on bringing him along for important events, but in the end decided not to. His story is complete and closed, time for new stories.

Quote from: Ciarente
Lots of stuff

110 % agreed. Couldn't have said it better.
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2013, 19:24 by Sepherim »
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Sepherim

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #47 on: 03 Mar 2013, 20:31 »

The only time I'd consider it not legitimate is if being lesbian/gay/xenophiliac is the only aspect of the character. It's perfectly fine to have these aspects, and you can even make them main aspects if you want, but if the only thing you use to describe the character is that she's a lesbian... It's just not very interesting. What else is she, in addition to being attracted to other females?

This doesn't apply only to sexual preferences either. You can ask the same question about a person who calls themselves a soldier. "Ok, what kind of soldier? Why did they want to join the military/militia? How do they view their opponents? What is their fighting style? How long have they been fighting? What, if anything, do they do concerning the people they've killed? Have they lost any friends in the line of duty?" So on and so forth. Summing a character up into one word, be it soldier, scientist, patriot, conservative, lesbian, hedonist, or anything else, doesn't provide enough flavor. It's the, "I am 'X', and also 'Y' and 'Z' " that gives characters depth, makes them interesting. (Also beware of trying to wear too many hats. As the Buddha would say, not enough is bad, but so is too much)

Yes, to me too, this is the key. A person is not just 1 thing, it's a complex sum of different roles to have with different people: can be an employee, a husband, a father, etc. If it only is one thing, it's not realistic, be it a lesbian, a soldier, or any other just one role. And it is also boring to interact with.
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Halete

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #48 on: 04 Mar 2013, 06:51 »

Like several people in this thread, my main (one of three characters that I RP) became a 'space lesbian' through evolution of her development and it wasn't a decision that I made when penning the character out (or even infact until a year after her conception and gameplay).

I dislike the assumptions that people immediately make about lesbian characters in EVE, especially the notion that male players who play lesbian characters must be fantasists (particularly as I'm gender-queer IRL and rank 4 on the Kinsey scale at most times).

It kind of is a pain but it's just that, a nuisance. I mean - I don't feel like my RP should be any more valid if I played a heterosexual, but it feels that way sometimes.

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Uraniae

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #49 on: 04 Mar 2013, 09:23 »

Bit late to the party but here we go.  Uraniae is, in some sense of the term, a space lesbian as well.  Like some others have mentioned, she also just "became" one through her RP by happy accident.  I didn't draw up any concrete plans on her sexuality when I made her, and eventually she simply happened to develop romantic feelings for a person she didn't expect.  I'll go into a little more detail on that in a moment but for now I'll say that I don't think I've ever seen or felt any (serious) derogatory or dismissive intent when I've seen the term used.  I've actually had a few conversations in game with various people who, when they found out who Ura's love interest is, made the joke about "Oh no, not another space lesbian."  All in all, everyone that has brought it up in a more serious sense has done so mostly to caution and advise that Ura doesn't become one of those space lesbians that has a relationship that only lasts a few days or weeks and uses it as some sort of huge and overly-dramatic RP hook.

Now, I can safely say that the starting point for Ura's attraction to another woman for a serious relationship began in a short RP event.  Cliche as it might be the situation was very much influenced by stories like Enemy Mine.  Ura and her love interest started out, quite literally at each others throats.  Myself and the other player wanted to find a way for both characters to be forced to see past preconceptions and first impressions.  But with the catalyst of being forced to rely upon one another they both developed some mutual respect for each other.  Eventually, with some more development, that ended up becoming a relationship.

Now, even with that sort of beginning I do think I've done a decent job at downplaying the relationship in the public eye.  I do not believe I've ever held up Ura's lover as any sort of attention seeking "look at me" tool.  Heck, I think a good many friends of Ura's don't even know she is in a relationship, let alone engaged to another woman.  Of course I may not be the best person to speak about serious RP relationships.  People talk about accidental space lesbians, but I've played out accidental marriages.
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Synthia

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #50 on: 04 Mar 2013, 14:18 »

A Space Lesbian is a lesbian that is in space.

The term, as I have seen it used OOC, denotes a character whose main recognisable feature is their sexuality. It is used to tease people at best, irritate them, or to denigrate them.

It is also used IC.

Synthia has been warned about Space Lesbians, in the course of her experiment with the Righteous/Unrighteous Dress.
Synthia is Unsure what a Space Lesbian actually is. She is occasionally Worried that various persons are one.


If the term bothers people, then it's no big deal if I stop using it.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #51 on: 04 Mar 2013, 14:34 »

I've sort of held off on posting in here for a bit partly out of laziness, but I guess as my name's come up at least a couple times I should throw in my own couple of cents septims ISK.

When I originally put things together for Morwen as a character, I deliberately chose not to give her any sexual preferences because I wanted to focus on other aspects of the character, and figured that if I felt like dicking around with an RP relationship in EVE (pun intended), I would just let things evolve naturally from everything else already written into the character from the start. (Which I suppose in some way could be considered making her explicitly bisexual, but that's not really important.)

Which is what happened, like for Katrina and Uraniae and Halete. The first thing that tends to catch Morwen's interest or eye is intellect, followed by attitude and a capability for mutual respect. Physical attributes rarely harm her view of someone, all other things equal. Some other aspects of her personality may or may not come into play here as well; I'll refrain from listing them though, no need to give spoilers. A(n unfortunate) side effect of this list of preferences is that many male characters disqualify themselves from this sort of interest because they don't give the impression that they actually meet any of those requirements (even if they actually do!). If there's no bait, the fish usually won't bite - so if they do too good a job at hiding these attributes, she'll just pay them no mind. (Amusingly, this is true for a lot of female characters too, but that's beside the point.)

Following that, after Simca's IC 'death', Erys (again a female) was not the first per se (since now I had two years of meeting people behind me)... but she was certainly the one who ended up spending the most consistent time roleplaying with me from an OOC standpoint. Online every day at the same time, offering impressive dialogue and character development, and helping me work through the storyline mess that became of Katrina. Simply put, with all the effort Erys put into working with me during those weeks, we allowed our characters to being interested to ensure continued development.

My character became involved in homosexual relationships because the players behind the characters offered me what I was looking for in the right amounts at the right time. MY character stinll has romantic interests in plenty of males. Kiruss Dasun, Pieter, Stitcher, John in a platonic way, Valdezi, and even Tiberius in a small way. All males, and all people she was/is interested in. Kiruss is taken, Pieter is taken, Stitcher is taken, John is her boss, Valdezi treats her like a sister, and Tiberious is a toaster. If the situations were different, they could have been her next partner.

These two paragraphs sum up a lot of the situation for me with Morwen. After a couple short-lived and messy (sometimes in traumatic ways) relationships, she ended up staying with some close friends for a while to destress. The combination of overlapping online time, conversations and other character development pushed her and one of those friends together. It wasn't the intent (not even IC) walking in; it just happened as a result of all of those factors coming together.

They've been together in some form or another for about three years, with a month-long break about a year in, and as Rin spoilered in OOC a few days ago (shame on you), recently got engaged. Going back to Morwen's 'checklist' for a moment, this person was smart (if naïve at times), had an attitude and outlook on life that was compatible with Morwen's (and allowed her to express herself in various ways she'd not had the opportunity to do before), and respected her as an equal.

As for the second paragraph, Aldrith in particular knows full well he's on Morwen's list, both IC and OOC. If he hadn't already been courting (or courted by, the jury's still out on that one :P) Mitara at the time, and if she hadn't already been in a relationship, it's possible she would've given serious chase to him. (She still likes teasing him about it on occasion, and being in the same solar system as him drives Mitara absolutely nuts, because she knows.) There are a few other people who I could see her being compatible with had some stuff happened differently - Vince for example; if not for a series of events that gave them 50 million reasons to hate each other, they'd otherwise be pretty compatible. :lol: There might be a few others, but I prefer to make people dig to find the others. >.>

Cia made an amazing post a little while back which I agree with 110%. I still feel obligated to point out that (despite Cia's insistence that there's "no need to ruin a good argument with facts, morlag") in many of the cases where "lolspacelesbian" jokes are made at Morwen's expense, I'm the one doing it. ;)

In general, if I use the term, I'm using it to refer to the (as Cia puts it) "shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire", who, imo, are the source of any "spacelesbian problem" that may or may not exist. Those of us for whom the "lesbian" or "bisexual" or whatever aspect of our characters is entirely secondary to other things like "musician" or "pirate" or "faction loyalist" or "mother", should not be lumped in with that group. It is not a defining characteristic - it is just an added piece of the puzzle.

Also, like Uraniae, Morwen's trying to downplay/not to make a big deal of her relationship in public, partly because she doesn't consider it anyone else's business or appropriate for public discussion, but also because there are far more interesting things to talk about in most situations. It occasionally gets referenced in passing (like taking a pillow to the back of the head from across the room when she's up late talking to people instead of, you know, sleeping), but even then that's generally in private among friends who already know her. There's also that she is usually amused by people trying to hit on her, even if she'd never actually admit it to anyone - who's going to try if they know you're not available? (Aside from Sid, of course. :lol: )


Someone mentioned ERP earlier (Nico iirc). I think that might actually be worth a discussion on its own (we may have a few existing threads already, in fact), but the tl;dr on my perspective there is that I strongly prefer to avoid it, except in the very rare cases where it will provide useful character or plot development, and all involved parties agree with that fact. Otherwise, if it's clear that hanky-panky-kiss-and-spanky is going to happen and it's not going to include/involve anything that would affect anyone in ways that need to be dealt with or hashed out, just fade to black and call the scene a wrap. No need to waste time if you already know the outcome. (Pun retroactively intended.)

... Jesus that turned out to be a bigger wall of text than intended. Whoops. :oops:
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2013, 16:35 by Morwen Lagann »
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Lagging Behind

Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Vincent Pryce

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #52 on: 04 Mar 2013, 14:45 »

There are a few other people who I could see her being compatible with had some stuff happened differently - Vince for example; if not for a series of events that gave them 50 million reasons to hate each other, they'd otherwise be pretty compatible. :lol:

We have lolled about this many-a-times OOCly with Morlag. They would've been scarily compatible.  :lol:

Also if there was +1 or a "like" button to push for Cia's posts I would push them so hard there'd be earthquakes at the magical land of Oz.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #53 on: 04 Mar 2013, 14:50 »

I should point out some side notes on downplaying or otherwise hiding relationships.

I consider myself lucky I rolled Caldari. Katrina IC has many cultural reasons to not speak about her relationships. Keep it in the bedroom, be tactful, etc... Even more so because she is engaged in a homosexual one. There are very very few times when she will (of her own accord and actions) flaunt the fact that she is partnered to Erys or formerly Simca. It doesn't come up in conversation, and when it does, she tends to try and be discrete about it. Unless she's drunk.

But, some of you will notice in retrospect now, that with the exception of my private OOC channel, I don't talk about Katrina's relationships much. The reason is that I am always consciously trying to avoid the spacelesbian trope. I try not to talk about it, because of the stereotype. If I were playing a Gallente or Minmatar, those OOC reasons could be the only ones I have for not speaking about it IC.

This is why I'm lucky I rolled Caldari, because her culture allows me to avoid having to mention it IC.

kalaratiri

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #54 on: 04 Mar 2013, 14:54 »

In general, if I use the term, I'm using it to refer to the (as Cia puts it) "shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire", who, imo, are the source of any "spacelesbian problem" that may or may not exist. Those of us for whom the "lesbian" or "bisexual" or whatever aspect of our characters is entirely secondary to other things like "musician" or "pirate" or "faction loyalist" or "mother", should not be lumped in with that group. It is not a defining characteristic - it is just an added piece of the puzzle.

Soo much exactly this. For close to a year before Kala even looked at anyone in a romantic way (male or female) she was deeply involved in supporting the Republic. Her first relationship began at the same time that she moved corps to support the Republic in a more direct way (FW). When that broke down, she moved into another corp, again, Republic supporting. Her next relationship was with her best friend (a fantastic idea and I highly recommend! :lol:) who also supports the Republic.

In fact, the only time Kala has ever not been actively involved in supporting the Republic was after the breakdown of her first relationship when she ran away to live with Morwen for a few months  ;)

On a different note, and in a kind-of response to Kat's post, Kala has never been shy about her sexuality (except right at the start when it was a bit of a surprise even to her) and has never hidden it. This is, I will admit, partly my OOC influence, but also because I don't see Minmatar culture as caring very much who you're sleeping with, unless they're enemy clan/Amarr/race traitor or something like that.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #55 on: 04 Mar 2013, 15:11 »

In fact, the only time Kala has ever not been actively involved in supporting the Republic was after the breakdown of her first relationship when she ran away to live with Morwen for a few months  ;)

And I will personally state for the record that absolutely nothing of note occurred during this time, because Kala mostly kept to herself the entire time. :P

In response to Katrina - Morwen's in a similar position due to where she lives, as well. Regardless of whether same-sex relationships are approved of or frowned upon in the Kingdom and/or Empire, Morwen is still an "outsider" to most people there despite being an active contributor to her community and working very hard to blend in. Many locals in positions of importance likely would (read: do) frown upon her relationship with a local Holder on that fact alone, and in fact this is why it was mostly kept hidden/quiet for the first three or four months after she moved in, with her posing as some combination of official-seeming roles to explain her presence around the estates and at Important Events.
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Lagging Behind

Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

kalaratiri

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #56 on: 04 Mar 2013, 15:22 »

In fact, the only time Kala has ever not been actively involved in supporting the Republic was after the breakdown of her first relationship when she ran away to live with Morwen for a few months  ;)

And I will personally state for the record that absolutely nothing of note occurred during this time, because Kala mostly kept to herself the entire time. :P

That 7.5+ khanid navy standing didn't grind itself >_>
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"Eve roleplayers scare me." - The Mittani

Lyn Farel

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #57 on: 04 Mar 2013, 15:30 »

I should point out some side notes on downplaying or otherwise hiding relationships.

I consider myself lucky I rolled Caldari. Katrina IC has many cultural reasons to not speak about her relationships. Keep it in the bedroom, be tactful, etc... Even more so because she is engaged in a homosexual one. There are very very few times when she will (of her own accord and actions) flaunt the fact that she is partnered to Erys or formerly Simca. It doesn't come up in conversation, and when it does, she tends to try and be discrete about it. Unless she's drunk.

But, some of you will notice in retrospect now, that with the exception of my private OOC channel, I don't talk about Katrina's relationships much. The reason is that I am always consciously trying to avoid the spacelesbian trope. I try not to talk about it, because of the stereotype. If I were playing a Gallente or Minmatar, those OOC reasons could be the only ones I have for not speaking about it IC.

This is why I'm lucky I rolled Caldari, because her culture allows me to avoid having to mention it IC.

Well, you can also be gallentean and be quite prudish.

But a prudish culture sure can help.
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Vieve

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #58 on: 04 Mar 2013, 16:06 »

Well, you can also be gallentean and be quite prudish.

That you can. Or seemingly candid without actually saying a darned thing.
 
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Sakura Nihil

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #59 on: 04 Mar 2013, 16:23 »

A few comments on this:

- I think it is likely that a large number of female characters aren't lesbian, per say, but rather are bisexual.  After all, we're in a day and age IRL where emphasis is placed on "be with the person you love" regardless of their gender, at least in a good portion of the world.  That trend only seems to be accelerating, so I find it hard to believe that said attitude hasn't become the norm by the time of EVE in the far, far future.  Especially as the primary goal of male-female relationships would be to create and raise children - with medical advancements, very little gets in the way of having children of your own, even in a homosexual relationship.  At least today with the help of surrogates and donors, that is.

- A large number of these bisexual women find relationships with other females due to the lack of suitable males out there, which tends to give rise to the theory that lesbian relationships are the norm when in fact they've just evolved due to supply and demand.  It's kind of a cold perspective, but it makes sense - take Sak, for instance.  She's got an outwardly assertive (if not bitchy) attitude, a major grudge against Amarrians, and doesn't want to consider any Blooder or Nation affiliate due to valid concerns (like being blooded, implanted (in the cybernetic way, you gutterminds!), et cetera).  When you knock those individuals off the list, along with those who are already in relationships or who are otherwise unsuitable (like major drug addicts, wimpy men, assholes, stalkers, et cetera), the pool of available males is dangerously low.  Comparitively, the pool of women is larger, and they tend to be more friendly and easier to strike up a chat with.  Consequently, her relationships tend to be with other women.

- One way to reverse this seemingly omnipresent trend is to get more male characters into the game, more types like Pieter, Stitcher, or Tibs (if he wasn't a toaster).  These guys tend to be magnets for female characters because they're generally pretty polite, intelligent, and even-keeled, and if there were more of their types in the game, I suspect the "Space Lesbian" label would apply to far fewer female characters.

That said, I think anyone who tosses that label out maliciously at people should grow up.  I've seen it thrown Sak's way a few times by a certain individual (who shall remain nameless), after she rejected his creepy pass at her.  It's nothing more than another form of the ever-common "my RP is superior to yours!" attitude, and we should attempt to minimalize its use in the community.  Even though I myself twitch and get tempted to use it every time I see a disposable, busty Gallente alt being used as a virtual sex doll.

Let's show some tolerance for character development here, and try to get some more good male characters into the RP scene.  After all, you don't see me calling people "Space Ahabs" if I see them talking about their backstory of "slavers/pirates/other killed my parents, I want revenge".  Tolerance, people.
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