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[Alizabeth]

So, someone makes a character, claims a distant (really distant: cousin 9th removed).  In practical terms, this means nothing.  My 5 greats uncle was the vice president of the CSA.  I'm also descended from William Bradford.  Does this mean anything practically?  Nope(.jpg).

Now, there are plenty of other characters that have interesting relations, minor branches of the Sarum family, for instance.
Backgrounds cannot be vetted.  Asking Verone to make a post from some CONCORD official or record keeper from each empire to verify a background is too much. 

So, rather than immediately calling them out.  "I checked the records, and you're not there" which, in my completely unhumble opinion, counts as godmodding, just go with it.  If they start using that relationship for anything other than fluff, i.e. some character says that they're the Empress's favorite niece and, well, we can stop there, by all mean, question that validity.  Since, in my completely unhumble opinion, godmodding an NPC, living or dead is bad as well. 

If someone wants to do anything regarding a background--and really, what's to stop someone else from saying that "I dug in the records and you were a prostitute as a teenager!"--they should contact the other player first.  If someone feels that a background is an issue, make a post here, send a mail, but don't, in my completely unhumble opinion, decide that their version of RP must be wrong and corrected.

[Vikarion]

Ah, but, what about:

IC claim: "Yes, and I'm the grandson of Matias Sobaseki, leader of the Caldari Rebellion, and therefore, my words have more weight then the rest of you plebian fools!" /IC claim

See, the problem with making these sorts of claims is that they are essentially requiring that other people RP according to your personal universe, with your rules. Making the claim that you are a relative of Tovil-Toba is essentially making a claim on my RP - specifically, that my character has to recognize that some member of the Tovil-Toba family believes the State is essentially junk. Since Tovil-Toba is the greatest Caldari hero, and the Caldari are family-oriented, that's actually a pretty big problem.

And if we can appropriate NPC names to ourselves, then hey, what's to stop me from creating a *sister of Roden* character to reveal that the Fed president, say, plans to kill all the Caldari? Or "brother of Jamyl Sarum* character to defect to the Republic? Doing this sort of thing seems to imply that one is a special person, who has the right to dictate to other players the storyline of the world. This is a privilege usually reserved for the authors of the setting.

This would be fine if we could get everyone to agree to it in a small setting. But in a large setting, like Eve, there's a tacit agreement that none of us will screw up another's RP by trying to be the special space princess or prince, because it causes problems for everyone else. When someone is perceived to be attempting such, they tend to receive the sort of response that goes along the lines of "prove it".

But this doesn't mean that your character has to do so. Your character can take such claims at face value if you wish. But it doesn't seem reasonable to insist that everyone else's character must do so as well.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Roleplaying a character related (or even connected) to a character from the fluff can really rub people the wrong way, I think.

The problem is, while they might be subtle, they force the person interacting with the character to, albeit in a sometimes very minor way, add something to or change their perception of the PF. I'm going to assume this thread is in reference the girl roleplaying Tovil-Toba's greatgreatgreat niece on the IGS, so please correct me if I'm wrong in that regard.

While you're totally right that her character is pretty inoffensive outwardly and doesn't wave her lineage around in peoples faces in any sense of the word, she still pushes a few assumptions onto others that aren't in the fluff. For instance, that Tovil-Toba wasn't an only child, that his entire family hadn't been killed by the Gallenteans, that he wasn't an implanted Jovian spy...

Well, you get the idea. All of these things might be true, and some people aren't going to be willing to accept that they aren't by virtue of the characters existance. RPers are generally pretty territorial with their background, (sometimes to their benefit, sometimes not so much) and don't like the idea of someone being able to just waltz in and mess with it, especially if they're someone new to the community.

I'm not saying it can't work - I knew a guy who roleplayed a relation to a lore-centric character in Lord of the Rings online, and did a fantastic job of it. However, I think it's still unfair to expect people to universally accept it. So characters of that vein should probably... Well, keep it to private roleplay? I'm not saying it's right to hit them, ICly, with a big old your-rp-sucks, but for some it's a choice between that or breaking their immersion to willfully pretend the character, or that aspect of them, does not exist.

And that's not to mention that it can be a tremendously slippery slope. What might start as a minor connection can become more and more rooted in ones roleplay over time once it's accepted, and can also give the idea to others who might do the same thing with quite a bit less discretion.

[Vikarion]

Accidental post.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Just a friendly mod heads-up. This thread does seem constructive so far, and I appreciate it. Please keep it that way. I know this is a somewhat volatile subject matter as RPing goes. Remember: There's a difference between 'You can't RP that way!' and 'You can RP a cylon, but everyone is probably going to call you nuts IC. Here's how I would approach it.' One of them is allowed, one isn't.[/mod]

[Alizabeth]

IC claim: "Yes, and I'm the grandson of Matias Sobaseki, leader of the Caldari Rebellion, and therefore, my words have more weight then the rest of you plebian fools!" /IC claim

...

See, the problem with making these sorts of claims is that they are essentially requiring that other people RP according to your personal universe, with your rules.

...

And if we can appropriate NPC names to ourselves, then hey, what's to stop me from creating a *sister of Roden* character to reveal that the Fed president, say, plans to kill all the Caldari? Or "brother of Jamyl Sarum* character to defect to the Republic? Doing this sort of thing seems to imply that one is a special person, who has the right to dictate to other players the storyline of the world. This is a privilege usually reserved for the authors of the setting.

I think it's a matter of distance.  If someone were to make a character that was Aliza's brother, that would be godmodding.  If someone were to make a character that shared a common ancestor 13 generations earlier, that's some wiggle room.  It makes no demand on someone's rp.  My response would be something along the lines of: "oh, we share a name and maybe someone way back when the Caldari still lived on Caldari Prime.  Big effing deal."

While you're totally right that her character is pretty inoffensive outwardly and doesn't wave her lineage around in peoples faces in any sense of the word, she still pushes a few assumptions onto others that aren't in the fluff. For instance, that Tovil-Toba wasn't an only child, that his entire family hadn't been killed by the Gallenteans, that he wasn't an implanted Jovian spy...

The relation makes no demands on Tovil-Toba (the PF one).  All it presupposes is that his grandfather had more than one child.  Remember that scene in Dogma, where Chris Rock tells Bethany that she's related to Jesus?  Same concept. 

Everybody's related to someone.  Hell, how many people in the world are related to Genghis Khan?  A metric crapton. 

A good response would be:  All you share with the admiral is his last name, because you sure did not acquire his honor.

My litmus test would be: does this affect PF.  Jamyl's brother, cousin, aunt, niece, would affect PF, since that would require some action on Jamyl's part (and would likely get a CCP urdoinitwrong poast.)  Her thirteenth cousin, though?  Assume 2.5 kids per generation.  After thirteen generations that's 150(ish) thousand people that someone could be related too.  And, Seraphia is not claiming direct ancestry, which might fall into something that should not happen. 

[Katrina Oniseki]

Can't read the OP, but there's a big difference between giving your character the family name and being 'distantly related'. Carrying the family name is not so distant. It's rather in-your-face obvious and direct relation.

That said, people make Kador and Sarum characters... why not Tovil-Toba. That's not going to stop everybody saying you're effectively not part of the family legacy when you go traitor though. Name your character what you want, but don't expect IC folks to take you more seriously because of it, or OOC for that matter. It's just a name.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

The relation makes no demands on Tovil-Toba (the PF one).  All it presupposes is that his grandfather had more than one child.

Well, yeah, but even that assumption is enough to upset people.

I mean - Who says Tovil-Toba even exists? Maybe he's a construct of the Caldari media. Who knows.

People get upset when other players make decisions about the reality of the lore for them, even if those realities are impossibly trivial. I'm not saying if this is a good thing or if it's somewhat neurotic - That probably depends on the scenario - but it's a thing to expect when one goes for something like this.

[Alizabeth]

I mean - Who says Tovil-Toba even exists? Maybe he's a construct of the Caldari media. Who knows.

That's like saying the Tetatae don't exist.  *Squawk!*  I think we'd be getting in dangerous grounds the moment we start denying PF.

[Vikarion]

Well, personally, I think that avoiding confusion with NPC entities is a good thing to do. I mean, to take your own example, Goonswarm has become very famous without having to trade on an NPC name. I think that players should make their own names, not use NPCs. I think that's fairest to other players, and to the devs.

I'm really trying to be sensitive to "urdoingitwrong" here, without losing my phrasing. Basically, when someone calls themselves a "Sarum", or "Heth", or "Shakor", or whatnot, it seems to me that they are trying to essentially buy RP credibility at the cost of everyone else's RP possibilities and perceptions. At some level, names do mean something to us. At some level, therefore, they probably mean something to our characters. It doesn't seem fair to me to try to seize that as a hammer over other's heads. I don't mind people using those things for background, certainly - say, if Vik grew up in KK or something - but there's a difference between a past history and a present association as a member.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Hahah - Alright, fair enough. I phrased that a little poorly.

I more meant that there are things about Tovil-Toba that we simply don't know about. It's very unlikely that this is by design, but people will still get upset at others deciding to fill in those gaps for them, since he's such an important character in the backstory and the assumptions are very, well, specific.

[Khloe]

People name-drop all the time in reality, associating themselves with distant relatives that no one can corroborate without way more effort than most people are willing to perform. Why? Because it's ultimately not that important, unless somehow their lives are impacted by that influence. Who cares if Jared Sarum III is the great niece to the Empress unless they actually can wield the influence in some constructive way? Otherwise, it's just a good tale to tell at a bar.

[Alizabeth]

I'm really trying to be sensitive to "urdoingitwrong" here, without losing my phrasing. Basically, when someone calls themselves a "Sarum", or "Heth", or "Shakor", or whatnot, it seems to me that they are trying to essentially buy RP credibility at the cost of everyone else's RP possibilities and perceptions.

If I meet someone who's last name is Kennedy, and I find out they are JFK's 13th cousin twice removed, how does that change my perception of them? 

By all means, correct Seraphia on the history, as some have.  "The Admiral would be ashamed, he did all this stuff for the people, you're betraying his memory, etc, etc."  Use what Aliza said, that the family has disowned her.  "You don't have the right to call yourself Tobil-Tova any more." 

Hell, send her an OOC mail, find out the story behind the 'chaos' call sign, get it, make a post about that (it's not flattery, that call sign).  There are plenty of ways to work with a character, rather than pull the old "records search."

[Silver Night]

I'm sure you would agree, though, that just as players can't make a records search, she can't produce records verifying her claim. So simply saying 'No you aren't' or calling her a fraud is perfectly valid IC. That sort of thing works both ways.

That is also why it is fairly uncommon, I think - leaving aside possible OOC reactions, IC you are unlikely to get much traction unless you do a very good job.

[Astrid Stjerna]

People get upset when other players make decisions about the reality of the lore for them, even if those realities are impossibly trivial. I'm not saying if this is a good thing or if it's somewhat neurotic - That probably depends on the scenario - but it's a thing to expect when one goes for something like this.

The thing is, in lore there are no truly 'trivial' bits.  They all help form a cohesive universe, with established rules and a defined history.

If I claim to be the son of Empress Jamyl, for example, it requires that we throw out the established conventions of the EVE universe (that clones can't reproduce, and that Jamyl doesn't have any children).

It's important to remember that to our characters, the 'lore' isn't just the creation of someone sitting at a desk in an office in Iceland -- it actually happened, and someone trying to disregard it will most likely be dismissed as a crackpot.