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[Gabriel Darkefyre]

I thought it was always known that only Holders can own slaves 

Think it's from the other perspective. If only Holders can legally own Slaves and Commoners are expressly Forbidden from Holding Slaves, then logically it would imply that a Commoner cannot be a Holder, only those holding Noble Title.

Therefore, any Commoner claiming to be a Holder and keeping Slaves is therefore in breach of Ammarian Law. In the Eyes of the Empire, the Law is the Word of God. I think you can imagine the Amarrian reaction to someone blatantly going against the Word of God.

It's also a big can of Worms for any Non-Amarrian trying to claim they are a Holder of the Amarrian Faith.

Edit: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holders - Evelopedia Article on Holders : Some interesting snippets there on just how powerful the Title of Holder is.

[Gottii]

I'd also be interested to know if slaves can be owned by an entity or organization rather than just individual Holders. What about corprately-owned slaves? I'm sure PIE Inc. would employ a few tens of thousands at least.

I would imagine they could be contracted out to an corporation or such, no big deal.

Though, the whole concept of slavery in the Empire is based upon being taught a path to God by an enlightened individual.  Not sure an entity could outright own a slave, just be their custodian.

[Rin Kaelestria]

I thought it was always known that only Holders can own slaves 

Think it's from the other perspective. If only Holders can legally own Slaves and Commoners are expressly Forbidden from Holding Slaves, then logically it would imply that a Commoner cannot be a Holder, only those holding Noble Title.

Therefore, any Commoner claiming to be a Holder and keeping Slaves is therefore in breach of Ammarian Law. In the Eyes of the Empire, the Law is the Word of God. I think you can imagine the Amarrian reaction to someone blatantly going against the Word of God.

It's also a big can of Worms for any Non-Amarrian trying to claim they are a Holder of the Amarrian Faith.

Actually, there isn't anything saying a Commoner in Amarr society cannot be a Holder. It's actually quite possible that a commoner, probably from the wealthy family stock, could be given the Holder title from higher authority. Thing is, only certain bloodlines are more likely to be chosen to be promoted in this way, mostly likely being the True Amarr and then followed by the Khanid.

I think in Mitara's case, it could happen, but she'd be one of the rare Ni-Kunni holders that PF talks about.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Having some title and a holdership are two different things. I think going at this with an inflation of retconned elevations to holdership somewhen in the past isn't the right way. There is especially the difference between holdership and nobility to be considered: "Though all Holders are nobility, it is not true that all nobility are Holders. A holder's entire family, even distant cousins and aunts and uncles, are considered nobility, but only the title owner himself is considered a Holder." (I think it's a misconception that holders are called holders because they hold slaves, rather it's people who are in charge of a holding, that is who have land and the right to judge and make law in that domain. There were holders even before the Amarr started to practice slavery, after all.)

So, the number of holders matches the number of holdings, safe for destitute holders. As holdership gets usually passed on by hereditary means the chance to get hold over a destitue holdership is pretty slim, unless one gets adopted, first in line to inherit and the holder dies. All other freshly made holders should - imho - rather busy them selves to keep their holdings in order than playing capsuleer, as if one is raised to holdership, then this is because someone thinks you are able to look after that holding and expect you just to do that and prove yourself by doing so.

So, I think those Amarr, that don't have already the background as nobility fare better with the possibilities that CSCs offer. After all, if you have the trust of a holder he can charge you with buying/selling/educating/freeing his slaves in his name, which makes you fapp the one 'owning' the slave. (Just be careful not to sell his lordships favourite slave. ) If you're also a certified slaver, you can even buy and sell slaves in your own right (though prolly not free them, as I understood it).

I think it makes good sense that in the Empire legal ownership of slaves is quite restricted.

Also: A commoner can't be a holder, by definition. A commoner might be elevated to holder status - but than he ceases to be a commoner.

[Natalcya Katla]

The Empire is so huge that there's bound to be regional differences. It doesn't seem far-fetched that some of the royal families (the Tash Murkons come to mind) might allow extremely wealthy (and otherwise politically uncontroversial) individuals to buy fiefs and with them status as Holders.

[Saede Riordan]

Also: A commoner can't be a holder, by definition. A commoner might be elevated to holder status - but than he ceases to be a commoner.

Yeah this definitely.

There was a trend within the RP community for a while (which I immensely disliked) of splitting holders into two categories

Holders (uppercase) being actual nobility
holders (lowercase) being anyone that held slaves.

This always bothered me, and I'm rather glad to see the PF didn't go in that direction.

[Silas Vitalia]

from the wiki entry:

"Occasionally, a commoner may be elevated to the rank of Holder. This typically occurs when the commoner has done a great service to the Empire or is of such wealth, distinction, and renown that it would be foolish to deny them. War heroes are among the most frequent commoners to be granted entry into the Holder class, a fact the Imperial Navy uses to its full advantage in recruitment."

[Alizabeth]

Sounds like every member of PIE would qualify to me.  Holder titles all around!

[lallara zhuul]

Nah.

Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris.

As far as I can tell PIE is more about selfless service to the Empire as a Guardian of the Empire and a Defender of the Faith, and those have not been high on the list of nobility... ever.

They're more of a class of warriors, not heroes.

[Graelyn]

Ya, PIE are more an order of paladins.

Social status should not be implied.

[Sepherim]

I must admit I liked the MIO intervention, brought a lot of things on the table to discuss.

I do feel small titles of nobility would not be difficult with the right resources and pressure, however. In our own history those things were often given out like hotcakes when Nobility needed cash infusions, or as rewards for service, etc.

That depends on the place and the time. In XVIth century Spain, for example, a noble would rather not eat than look like he can't do well, much less sell his title! For an example, check out the "Lazarillo de Tormes" book which features such a character. In truth, most titles weren't actually on sale until around the XVIIIth century in most places.

Right, let's also not forget there's a Crusade on; nothing says 'nice job killing heathens' like a few lordships handed out to good officers.

I see this as quite more probable, and still don't remember any such things happening inside EVE PF. Medals yes, but no lordships.

I'd also be interested to know if slaves can be owned by an entity or organization rather than just individual Holders. What about corprately-owned slaves? I'm sure PIE Inc. would employ a few tens of thousands at least.

Agreed. The Ordo had its Legio afterall, so I'd like to see if such a thing was a big contradiction of PF at the time or not.

Lots of stuff

I can't agree more.

[Streya]

I have to agree with Nicoletta in thinking that a bunch of retconning might be iffy, particularly if your character is of a bloodline that doesn't often have a noble title (Ni-Kunni and Ammatar come to mind). That being said, if you are an Amarrian loyalist capsuleer, chances are your character has sworn fealty to a Holder. What with your wealth and undying service to the Faith and all, your character could probably tug on the Holder they've pledged fealty to in order to initiate one of these Custodial Servitude Contract dealies. Of course it's also quite possible your character refuses to swear fealty to anyone but the Empress herself, in which case you might run into issues trying to explain why your character has slaves.

There is also the second possibility of certain laws somehow not applying to capsuleers. Mechanicslly, at least, the only laws you can get penalized for not following are CONCORD laws. I've always viewed capsuleers (at least, the kind player characters are) as being pretty much supra-national (or is "transnational" a better term?), with any loyalties being of their own accord.

[Sepherim]

There is also the second possibility of certain laws somehow not applying to capsuleers. Mechanicslly, at least, the only laws you can get penalized for not following are CONCORD laws. I've always viewed capsuleers (at least, the kind player characters are) as being pretty much supra-national (or is "transnational" a better term?), with any loyalties being of their own accord.

Yeah, I think this is the case. And the recent taking of slaves by EM in the Ammatar space would be in this line, as they used this to get them and then move them around.

[Natalcya Katla]

That depends on the place and the time. In XVIth century Spain, for example, a noble would rather not eat than look like he can't do well, much less sell his title! For an example, check out the "Lazarillo de Tormes" book which features such a character. In truth, most titles weren't actually on sale until around the XVIIIth century in most places.

Actual transfer of a title from one person to another isn't always what it's about, though. The issuing of completely new titles is always a possibility. On the subject of Spain in the 16th century, that was the time in which it began to grow into a colonial power. I can't be bothered to trawl for sources right now, but I imagine that there were several cases throughout that century where petty nobles and even enterprising commoners were given holdings and titles in the new overseas territories, without anyone back in Spain proper having to give up their own title first.

[Lyn Farel]

The question of why are some Amarr NPC corps selling slaves on the capsuleer market bothers me too.

I think I may ask to an actor if I do not forget.

Nah.

Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris.

As far as I can tell PIE is more about selfless service to the Empire as a Guardian of the Empire and a Defender of the Faith, and those have not been high on the list of nobility... ever.

They're more of a class of warriors, not heroes.

It mostly depends what PIE want eventually, but modest heroes that do want to remain modest are sometimes forced to accept rewards and titles by political and public pressure.

I'd also be interested to know if slaves can be owned by an entity or organization rather than just individual Holders. What about corprately-owned slaves? I'm sure PIE Inc. would employ a few tens of thousands at least.

Sure they are. Amarr Navy and the likes come to mind.

Or they just borrow them to actual Holders, creating interesting private <-> public contracts like the one described here.

I have to agree with Nicoletta in thinking that a bunch of retconning might be iffy, particularly if your character is of a bloodline that doesn't often have a noble title (Ni-Kunni and Ammatar come to mind).

Actually the Ammatars are part of the few bloodlines in the greater Empire that have a high number of Holders, much like the Khanid. The difference being that they do not technically own the title and the law is very vague around it. They just do it because it is tolerated, and that comes from a tradition induced by war necessities dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion.