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[Jev North]

:Heth: is kind of a big thing. Divides up the Caldari like nothing else. Annoying.

With any luck, he won't last through the coming six months, and we can go back to having the shady as fuck corporatist society we were sold, instead of a confirmed failing hellhole dictatorship. One can hope, yes? :3

[Gesakaarin]

To me it's a matter of IC perspective.

From the perspective of my own character, they hold that a capsuleer is afforded great power and responsibility and are defined by their choices. When she sees a Caldari capsuleer deciding to use their freedom of choice to do their own thing, then she views that as a rejection of the ideals of the State and their walking off into the snow. If those same Caldari capsuleers then turn around and speak openly and in public against Tibus Heth then to her they are dissidents or traitors who have lost face and shamed themselves by criticizing a leadership figure of the State. If they don't grasp just how that is a loss of face then to her they are not Caldari. In the end, she is inculcated with the belief that there is only loyalty to the State unto death and she does not believe in freedom of speech or personal liberty for she has only an absolute, unwavering conviction to do her duty as it demands.
 
The Patriots have often been described as the staunchly patriotic, militaristic, nationalist hardliners who believe in a strong and proud State and in playing one is not surprising that the view, "If a Caldari does not fight and die for the State when they are given the choice then they are not Caldari," would be held by them? This doesn't mean other perspectives of being Caldari are suddenly illegitimate, but rather that the Patriots have their own particular worldview that I might describe as that if it's felt that one must shut the fuck up, fall in line and salute the flag for the greater good and glory of the State then one must do so.

Now, as to Ishukone and I-RED. When it's considered that Mens Reppola negotiating with Federal authorities and President Roden during a time of war is public knowledge, that I-RED once attacked STPRO units with FDU assistance, has publicly accessible records showing both I-RED and FDU units such as SOTF on a Nyx killmail, has members who speak out openly in public against the State Executor, and when given the choice to assist the STPRO in its efforts does not -- from the perspective of a Caldari loyal to ideals of the Patriots how are such actions to be perceived?

Yes, Ishukone is a State corporation and it's quite legitimate to me to say as a Caldari one is beholden only to their corporation and there is nothing objectively 'wrong' with the formation of that perspective, however from other perspectives and worldviews within the State it can be seen how the actions of Ishukone and its subsidiaries might be viewed as being, 'disloyal' since what they may consider as being 'loyal to the State' might differ from that of Ishukone and vice-versa.

Note: It also has to be considered that Black Rise is solely invested in by the Patriot Megas of KK/Wiyr/Lai Dai. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, why would other Megas in the State wish to risk their assets defending what is effectively Patriot corporate land and property? From a corporate realpolitik perspective it might seem that calls to arms to defend CEWPA designated territory in Black Rise means defending Patriot Bloc assets under the guise of patriotism.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Now, as to Ishukone and I-RED. When it's considered that Mens Reppola negotiating with Federal authorities and President Roden during a time of war is public knowledge, that I-RED once attacked STPRO units with FDU assistance, has publicly accessible records showing both I-RED and FDU units such as SOTF on a Nyx killmail, has members who speak out openly in public against the State Executor, and when given the choice to assist the STPRO in its efforts does not -- from the perspective of a Caldari loyal to ideals of the Patriots how are such actions to be perceived?

Caldari RP is odd in that this actually presents a problem. Something the size of I-REd trying to make ends meet and become something bigger doesn't have the luxury of "Freedom of Speech" to not get along with other STPRO elements. the fact is, OOC rivalries were formed, and the issues that resulted in much of STPRO being turned red were fueled by wholly OOC issues. From what I can gather, shots were fired in the heat of combat, and people got butthurt. this is bound to happen when you're dealing with an alliance as big and active as I-RED was at the time. Butthurt snowballed into an actual wardec, where I-RED got stomped by Wolfsbrigade.

What began as a small disagreement turned into a diplomatic nightmare, and after the end of it all... people still hate each other over the game. There's very little room to maneuver diplomatically to help I-RED and STPRO work things out. People don't want to move on.

Some of it was IC, but just by speaking to those involved... even I found out that neither side really wanted to get over it. What's worse is that I-RED is majority OOC, not IC. Most of our members openly mock roleplayers, and only follow our plots because it gives them shit to shoot. I have been fighting since day one in RDC to fix the standings issues regarding shooting STPRO - but it is an extremely difficult task when OOC is getting in the way.

When faced with these issues that many smaller Caldari RP entities don't have to deal with - because they don't get noticed - I-RED is given the choice between doing what's best for us asn an Alliance or roleplaying ourselves into a corner. I apologize if this is harsh, but we're not going to let our alliance die so other roleplayers will think we're 'loyal' in their eyes.

As for Mens Reppola, that's a legitimate point. But it's something that Ishukone has a history of, and one that's always been accepted as just something Ishukone does. They're not adverse to talking things out, but that doesn't mean they are best friends with the Fed.

On our members openly speaking out against Heth, we're not the only ones who do. Plenty of other Caldari roleplayers do so frequently IC, yet they are not dirty liberals.

I would not expect a Patriot to like Ishukone, but I would expect them to recognize that Ishukone is still a VERY valuable part of the Caldari State. And honestly? If the Patriot roleplayers were more willing to work with us, you might see our ships out there in the warzone helping you take back systems. WHG/I-RED blue status is an example of cooperation, and should be emulated.

[Sepherim]

I'll get back into the general topic and leave the details of the Caldari situation to those of you that know it better.

As far as I go both IC and OOCly, claiming you only support your faction by being a member of the FW side of it is both limiting RP and gameplay, and foolish. First, what happens to those factions that don't have FW? Can I be loyal to Sansha, if there is no war theater for it? You can even go beyond, what happens to those factions that lack military commitment? Can I be supportive of the Servant Sisters if I kill in a war theater? Sure, some may say, the Sisters have quite a dark side, but is that their only side?

As for factions that do have war theaters, do they only participate in war? The answer is no. I created a corporation, the OQ, that defended the Empire from its internal enemy. We did get into FW, but we existed way before, and even after we left FW. Its mission was to root out terrorist and prevent attacks: it participated in live events, obtained intelligence to fool plans of different corporations (for example, Revan's) and so on. So, even without the FW side, it did plenty of things for the Empire.

What of corporations that free slaves for the Republic, like EM? Or maybe scholars and other venues that have existed in the Empire? Or the Scope for the Gallente? There are dozens of ways of supporting your empire beyond FW, and forgetting or ignoring those sides of the coin is limiting everything: you very well stop RPing and dedicating to FW killing alone if that's all that matters to be loyal to a faction.

And OOCly, what for those people that don't like the game mechanics involved in FW? Good examples for not liking it have already been suggested here. Do they have to forcefully do something they are bored with (which would, eventually, lead them to getting bored of the game and leaving) so they can RP to be loyal? I find that completely against the base of the game, which is to have fun.

So, to sum it all up, in my book that claim is clearly a "no". Of course, if you RP being loyal and do nothing for your faction, then I probably will see you ICly as the classical person that only pays lip service to his values. But, then again, Seph does consider most of the capsuleer community is composed of self-centered egotistic maniacs, so he wouldn't be surprised.

[orange]

I'll get back into the general topic and leave the details of the Caldari situation to those of you that know it better.

Sorry, we are working through shit.

[Streya]

I generally view action as the best qualifier for what makes a loyalist legitimately loyal. As has already been said here, sure militia service is the most overt way, but industrial support and donating war materials and the like is equally legitimate. Additionally, if you've done some live event ops with your faction's dev actors and gotten a nod of approval, I consider that +1 Official Loyalist Point. This is especially true of the pirate groups; I know TS-F and gang have no militia to serve in, yet are recognized as being the Sansha loyalists because of the years of dedicated support and live event roleplay they've done.

You don't need a FW rank to be a loyalist, you just need to have actual action behind your words IMO. FW is stale at this point anyway and I'd not recommend it to anyone until some sort of overhaul is done. So don't feel obligated to do it!

[Gesakaarin]

Caldari RP is odd in that this actually presents a problem. Something the size of I-REd trying to make ends meet and become something bigger doesn't have the luxury of "Freedom of Speech" to not get along with other STPRO elements. the fact is, OOC rivalries were formed, and the issues that resulted in much of STPRO being turned red were fueled by wholly OOC issues. From what I can gather, shots were fired in the heat of combat, and people got butthurt. this is bound to happen when you're dealing with an alliance as big and active as I-RED was at the time. Butthurt snowballed into an actual wardec, where I-RED got stomped by Wolfsbrigade.

I wasn't there at the time, but it really is a moot point at the moment IC considering that Wolfsbrigade are currently based around Prism and are currently quite openly blue with a few FDU entities.

Some of it was IC, but just by speaking to those involved... even I found out that neither side really wanted to get over it. What's worse is that I-RED is majority OOC, not IC. Most of our members openly mock roleplayers, and only follow our plots because it gives them shit to shoot. I have been fighting since day one in RDC to fix the standings issues regarding shooting STPRO - but it is an extremely difficult task when OOC is getting in the way.

The difficulty here then I think is that just because an action was undertaken for OOC reasons does not change the fact that those very same actions can carry with them IC consequences for others when viewing those actions according to the particular perspectives and worldview of their characters.

When faced with these issues that many smaller Caldari RP entities don't have to deal with - because they don't get noticed - I-RED is given the choice between doing what's best for us asn an Alliance or roleplaying ourselves into a corner. I apologize if this is harsh, but we're not going to let our alliance die so other roleplayers will think we're 'loyal' in their eyes.

I never stated that I-RED as an Alliance should seek to act in its own interests or what it deems fit or suitable to ensure its existence. As above though, all actions in Eve can carry with them IC consequences which varies from perspective to perspective and which can be difficult to simply ignore or just hand-wave away.

As for Mens Reppola, that's a legitimate point. But it's something that Ishukone has a history of, and one that's always been accepted as just something Ishukone does. They're not adverse to talking things out, but that doesn't mean they are best friends with the Fed.

I think what CCP has done with Mens Reppola and Ishukone is far more significant than simply, "Oh, Ishukone" for the other Megacorporations in the State. On the one hand it can be seen as collaborating with the enemy by the Patriots and on the other hand it can be seen as an opportunity by the Practicals to use that sentiment to carve up as much of Ishukone and Hyasyoda for themselves (Unless Reppola secretly has the Practicals on board to work against the Patriots). It would have made more sense though if Reppola had done what he did private but no, it was put into the public domain IC by CCP so the fact that it did occur has to factor into how characters may view that action.

On our members openly speaking out against Heth, we're not the only ones who do. Plenty of other Caldari roleplayers do so frequently IC, yet they are not dirty liberals.

There's nothing wrong with that inherently because how people play their characters and they should feel free to express their opinions consistent with their character's beliefs. Just as other characters may develop their own thoughts on Caldari who openly speak out against any leadership or authority figures in public according to their own beliefs.

I mean, hell, my character has deep misgivings about the direction Mens Reppola seems to be taking Ishukone but she doesn't go out in public forums or channels and openly calls him out because as far as they're concerned Reppola sits on the CEP and she does not so it's not her place to criticize what they do in public.

Others might think differently.

I would not expect a Patriot to like Ishukone, but I would expect them to recognize that Ishukone is still a VERY valuable part of the Caldari State. And honestly? If the Patriot roleplayers were more willing to work with us, you might see our ships out there in the warzone helping you take back systems. WHG/I-RED blue status is an example of cooperation, and should be emulated.

I would agree, but the perception can also go the other way in which those who play a Caldari loyal to a Patriot Mega feel that Ishukone/Liberals want little to do with them so continue playing in their own corner of FW.

I might just re-iterate though that I don't feel that someone has to actively join a militia to be "loyal" to a faction simply that it's the most direct and visible format as a freelancing capsuleer with strong patriotic/nationalist sentiments. It shouldn't detract from the ability to support a faction or RP within it through other means consistent with the fiction of that faction and of ones own character.

[Laerise [PIE]]

To everyone "whining" about being unable to "win" FW. Man up! It's much better to compare FW to Verdun / the Somme than anything else. You charge across no-mans-land, capture 20cm more ground for 20.000 dead and wounded, then pop open a bottle of (freshly looted) champaigne and celebrate. 

[Karmilla Strife]

FW has always been a grind. IC: my character doesn't expect players of her faction to be militia members. The Empire is greater than even the crusade...

That said, she demands respect for the role she has played for the Empire. (Divine Commodore from plexing before rewards) And she even gives grudging respect to Rivals with excellent FW records, Laerise, Aldrith, and Shalee come to mind.

I don't think FW involvement is the sole benchmark for faction loyalty, but it certainly should mean something. If you've fought and bled for years for your faction, you at least deserve your standings boost, if not an occiaisional PF nod from our CCP overlords.

[Streya]

To everyone "whining" about being unable to "win" FW. Man up! It's much better to compare FW to Verdun / the Somme than anything else. You charge across no-mans-land, capture 20cm more ground for 20.000 dead and wounded, then pop open a bottle of (freshly looted) champaigne and celebrate. 

That doesn't quite work for the guerilla-style character who wants to see a definite end in sight. And that definitely doesn't appeal to the guerilla-style player, most importantly. But that's all mechanical limitations and a serious lack of soft, important infrastructure to bomb. Seriously, have you ever tried to bomb POS modules and the like? Pfft. It's all just a grind, really, and I can't say I find that enjoyable anymore.

Which is why I think staying outside of FW but operating inside of "enemy" (faction opposed to your character's ideology) space and doing things like hisec wardecs and the like is fun. With new aggression mechanics changes post-Retribution I can do some fun bits of RP raiding NPC convoys in order to rescue slaves from them. And I do! Where the conflict gets interesting is finding other roleplayers to stop me.

[Karmilla Strife]

guerilla-style character saying they're content with the mechanics..

*edited to correct my statement*

[Bong-cha Jones]

Faction Warfare is definitely the most mechanically supported way to show loyalty to a faction.

But it's not like the characters know that.

As long as you're involved at some level, be that missioning, knocking down belt rats, setting up trade hubs, producing goods, financially and/or materially supporting FW participants, dropping PI structures with the intent to benefit the planetary populations, participating in events to the extent you can (not a lot of events take place in the time slot I play in, for example) and doing any of those things alone or in some combination, you're probably some stripe of loyalist.

All the ways in which a character could be a loyalist that were viable before FW are still viable now, as far as I'm concerned.

[Laerise [PIE]]

To everyone "whining" about being unable to "win" FW. Man up! It's much better to compare FW to Verdun / the Somme than anything else. You charge across no-mans-land, capture 20cm more ground for 20.000 dead and wounded, then pop open a bottle of (freshly looted) champaigne and celebrate. 

That doesn't quite work for the guerilla-style character who wants to see a definite end in sight. And that definitely doesn't appeal to the guerilla-style player, most importantly. But that's all mechanical limitations and a serious lack of soft, important infrastructure to bomb. Seriously, have you ever tried to bomb POS modules and the like? Pfft. It's all just a grind, really, and I can't say I find that enjoyable anymore.

Which is why I think staying outside of FW but operating inside of "enemy" (faction opposed to your character's ideology) space and doing things like hisec wardecs and the like is fun. With new aggression mechanics changes post-Retribution I can do some fun bits of RP raiding NPC convoys in order to rescue slaves from them. And I do! Where the conflict gets interesting is finding other roleplayers to stop me.

Just pick a system/ constellation you want to conquer then, like we did with Aset for a while. That gives you a finite goal you can acchieve.

[Lyn Farel]

What Simon or Sepherim said for me.

Yes, all of this will continue endlessly and with apparently no purpose and no issue. That's game mechanics dictating it. Be it FW, missions, or more generally conflict. Everyone can see that, and it happens that some factionned characters also see that in a certain cynical or jaded way ICly. And I do not see how it makes them less worthy than the ones fighting on the frontlines. Especially since all this conflict is, as we say, meaningless in the end.

I also find that OOC trend consisting to say that people backing their words with actions to have a rather shallow or dull result. It tends to make people care more about killboard than real content. That's the worst RP I could hope to get personnally.

RP for me means decent and believable characters living in a believable world. RP means depth. Who cares if that is accomplished through words, behavior, or actions ?

Also, why words would be somehow less worthy than the accomplishements of some random actions of a mass murderer ingame ? Since when words somehow matter less than ingame actions ? Aren't they deeds too ? Why can't a factionned capsuleer support his own faction through rhetorics, PR, propaganda, or news pieces ?

It looks like epeen contest to me. I do not play for a popularity contest, I play for a story.

[BloodBird]

Fighting for one's beliefs are a worthy pursuit, but words and non-combat deeds are not worthless.

I've had other characters tell mine that his opinions (negative ones regarding an in-game entity) are worthless and irrelevant so long as he's not fighting (against this entity) for the sake of said opinion. I have only one thing to say to such a claim both in and out of character; Go fuck yourself.

If my character states an opinion, regarding, say, the Caldari State, and any known characters of that faction were to tell my toon that the opinion is worthless unless I'm willing to fight the State over it, then what they have done is basically perform the most worthless cope-out available to them. The Caldari State can not be destroyed by any character, so I won't ever be able to 'prove' the worth of my toon's argument. This does not instantly prove my toon's beliefs wrong or diminish it's worth.

Lyn explained it very well, so I will simply leave this here:

RP for me means decent and believable characters living in a believable world. RP means depth. Who cares if that is accomplished through words, behavior, or actions ?

Also, why words would be somehow less worthy than the accomplishements of some random actions of a mass murderer ingame ? Since when words somehow matter less than ingame actions ? Aren't they deeds too ? Why can't a factionned capsuleer support his own faction through rhetorics, PR, propaganda, or news pieces ?

I happen to agree completely.