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[JinOtsi]

Re: Seri likes starting troll threads

icwutudidthar

[Ava Starfire]

This thread went from being about CCP favoritism to being about how "western ideals" make bad RPers.

Not sure painting broad "ur doing it wrong" strokes over lots of people is the best way to have a productive discussion.

[Seriphyn]

When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.

If you read some of the Fed PF beyond what one guy says in TEA, there's a lot of answers to these questions. You're basing your entire argument off of what one guy says in a book written by someone who doesn't even work for CCP, and even then, what one guy says is going to be inherently subjective.

Re: Seri likes starting troll threads

[Ava Starfire]

If you read some of the Fed PF beyond what one guy says in TEA, there's a lot of answers to these questions. You're basing your entire argument off of what one guy says in a book written by someone who doesn't even work for CCP, and even then, what one guy says is going to be inherently subjective.

You base your entire argument about "Western culture skewing RP!" off your own opinion.

[Seriphyn]

That was Gesakaarin's point (which I happen to agree with); my argument is that there is no conscious and/or systemic "bias" against any of the four factions. A lot of Gesa's opinions stand true, especially that their character is called a "troll" rather than considered a legitimate Caldari character.

[Ava Starfire]

I honestly have detected less trollishness from Caldari characters/players than from probably anyone else. I just am tired of people saying things like "People only choose Minmatar because they want to be punk rockers" or "people play Gallenteans because they think its space America".

I assure you, Gotti, me, Elsebeth, and so on did *NOT* choose to play Minmatar to be *punk rocker rebels* anymoreso than you or Andy play Gallenteans to be drug abusing sex addicts or any more than Desi and crew chose Caldari to be space nazis. The broad sweeping generalizations do a whole lot more injustice to the people who consciously avoid that sort of thing than they do to remedy any actual *problem* which may exist.

[Desiderya]

However, you're reducing the point about western morals down to being the only reason why people chose these sides which obviously, as you've correctly said, isn't true.

I tend to agree with the original point because especially the State is often seen in a very relativistic light under these morals, where 'corporate dictatorship' gets somehow turned into a more libertarian than totalitarian entity. Needless to say I don't see the State as a dictatorship that rules through terror. The meritocratic ideals combined with the heiian mentality of the culture soften this up quite well, but in the end there are totalitarian elements and you are expected - not just by the megacorporations but by society itself - to do your part, else you face living a life outside the corporate shell and therefore out of society.


Saying that Republic/Federation are the good guys and State/Empire are the bad guys is too simple. However, it is easier to paint the former in a good light than it is with the latter, mainly because for us the basic themes and foundations of both the Republic and the Federation are closer to home. Ultimately CCP has given us enough ammunition to make both cases for and against every empire. It seems to be more a question how the RP community values these arguments.
Personally I think "Heth = Hitler" to be a rather oversimplified and needless to say quite distasteful comparison. My biggest criticism at that character is merely that TEA was written in a way that the entire merit of his ascent was outside influence and pure luck - but from the way it has to be seen based on (caldari) IC experiences he is a damn role model. More so for the masses of citizens than the execs, who,at that time, have rightfully felt threatened by that rise.
And the racism? Well, here we are, western morals, let's go back in time a bit and check how socially acceptable racism was and where it came from.

[Seriphyn]

However, you're reducing the point about western morals down to being the only reason why people chose these sides which obviously, as you've correctly said, isn't true.

I tend to agree with the original point because especially the State is often seen in a very relativistic light under these morals, where 'corporate dictatorship' gets somehow turned into a more libertarian than totalitarian entity. Needless to say I don't see the State as a dictatorship that rules through terror. The meritocratic ideals combined with the heiian mentality of the culture soften this up quite well, but in the end there are totalitarian elements and you are expected - not just by the megacorporations but by society itself - to do your part, else you face living a life outside the corporate shell and therefore out of society.


Saying that Republic/Federation are the good guys and State/Empire are the bad guys is too simple. However, it is easier to paint the former in a good light than it is with the latter, mainly because for us the basic themes and foundations of both the Republic and the Federation are closer to home. Ultimately CCP has given us enough ammunition to make both cases for and against every empire. It seems to be more a question how the RP community values these arguments.
Personally I think "Heth = Hitler" to be a rather oversimplified and needless to say quite distasteful comparison. My biggest criticism at that character is merely that TEA was written in a way that the entire merit of his ascent was outside influence and pure luck - but from the way it has to be seen based on (caldari) IC experiences he is a damn role model. More so for the masses of citizens than the execs, who,at that time, have rightfully felt threatened by that rise.
And the racism? Well, here we are, western morals, let's go back in time a bit and check how socially acceptable racism was and where it came from.

It could be said that the State IS totalitarian but this is normal by Caldari standards...totalitarian regimes in the past have been anomalous and exceptionalist regarding the countries they spawned from. When we hear 'dictator' IRL we think Hitler and all these people, but the Roman Caeser was a "dictator" or "despot". I don't think it's your typical paranoid dictatorship (outside of Heth), a more bureaucratic/administrative one. The authoritarianism is a product of the culture that ultimately is designed to serve it (see, modern PRC), not like short-lived dictatorships IRL that are meant to serve the people in power. The State would not have lasted long under the latter.

[Shaalira]

While you view the QCATS et al as as valiantly sticking it out during the rough times when their Caldari counter parts ran for the hills; I view them as fish that’ve grown too big for a little pond but refuses to head for the ocean.     As I see it, those other groups didn’t abandon FW, they dutifully moved on to bigger challenges.    To me, sticking around to feed on young, disorganized prey because they enjoy being the baddest thing in the spawning pool isn’t to be lauded.

This isn't a theme park MMO, where you move to different areas where you gain in level.  This is the sandbox and the endgame is what you make of it.  By and large, our ranks are made up of people who prefer small-gang combat and the solo opportunities that low-security space offers.  FW provides the quick access to PvP with a free wardec and plentiful WTs that nullsec does not.

Keep in mind that many of our veterans have tried nullsec and found it not to their liking.  SOTF went full nullsec before they decided it was not for them.  And who could blame them?  After years of nonstop action, they ended up grappling with boring CTAs (sitting for hours in ship waiting for the call, only to be blueballed and then having to grind structures for more hours).  Nullsec is a different lifestyle than low-sec.  Viewing FW as a stepping stone or as a training ground for 'larger ponds' is a paternalistic and condescending view.

The idea that CCP was treating FW as a 'stepping stone' into nullsec was one of the major gripes of the population at large when Hans was elected.  And part of his platform was going to CCP to change that attitude and make it clear that many in FW see it as their preferred end-game.  This was a concern that was shared by many entities across different militias.

And it isn't the Caldari militia that are the only regular opponents of organized cap-dropping groups such as SOTF and SPDR.  In low-sec, they also regularly face pirate groups such as Snuff Box, Shadow Cartel, etc. that have titans and capital ships and logistics doctrines of their own.  Rather than being the 'big fish in a small pond,' they have other dedicated opponents who have made low-sec the end-game and fight with comparable numbers.

That few of these opponents make their home in the Caldari militia is not something you can blame them for.

Edit P.S. - Early last year, Pandemic Legion occupied Amamake. SOTF organized and attacked a Pandemic Legion Titan, managing to destroy it while risking (and losing!) a fair number of their own dreads.  Last Alliance Tournament, SLAPD went all in and made it to the final day, winning matches against some longstanding AT veterans and committing billions worth in ships and entrance fees in doing so.  What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?

[Hamish Grayson]

This is the sandbox and the endgame is what you make of it.

This is true, but it doesn't change my opinion that they are trying to have the same endgame as a sov holding coalition but with less danger, less work and less (material) reward.   

Edit P.S. - Early last year, Pandemic Legion occupied Amamake. SOTF organized and attacked a Pandemic Legion Titan, managing to destroy it while risking (and losing!) a fair number of their own dreads.  Last Alliance Tournament, SLAPD went all in and made it to the final day, winning matches against some longstanding AT veterans and committing billions worth in ships and entrance fees in doing so.  What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?

These accomplishments are all things to be proud of but have nothing to do FW do they?   That their biggest boasting rights come from times they've stepped out of their little pond into the bigger world of Eve is rather telling in my opinion.   They aren't really bragging about that time they crushed that 40 man caracal gang the squids threw up or how quickly they capped that last constellation faster than those three guys in condors.

Then again, my perception is really biased against Facwar in general.   I kind of hate it 

What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?

 

I honestly don't know, but hell if they wanted to stay in Blackrise/Placid for the easy access to small gang fights they could do that while outside of the FDU and let a new group cut their teeth at organizing the Federals to fight the good fight.

[Morwen Lagann]

I just gave the thread a bit of a cleaning for several inappropriate posts. Silver or I may take another pass later.

[Silas Vitalia]

Hamish do you have a judge's ruling on exactly how many members and what sort of PVP activity is acceptable to you for FW organizations?

Not being a fan, or not liking what is going on is one thing, whining to someone about how they should be playing the game your way is about as silly as it gets.

Back on topic!

[Lyn Farel]

I honestly have detected less trollishness from Caldari characters/players than from probably anyone else. I just am tired of people saying things like "People only choose Minmatar because they want to be punk rockers" or "people play Gallenteans because they think its space America".

I assure you, Gotti, me, Elsebeth, and so on did *NOT* choose to play Minmatar to be *punk rocker rebels* anymoreso than you or Andy play Gallenteans to be drug abusing sex addicts or any more than Desi and crew chose Caldari to be space nazis. The broad sweeping generalizations do a whole lot more injustice to the people who consciously avoid that sort of thing than they do to remedy any actual *problem* which may exist.

I am not really sure if you are adressing to one of my last post, but I was pretty sure that I specifically targeted the masses. Of course that Gotti, you, Elsebeth and so on chose your faction with a little more tact and subtelty... :/

[Hamish Grayson]

Hamish do you have a judge's ruling on exactly how many members and what sort of PVP activity is acceptable to you for FW organizations?

Not being a fan, or not liking what is going on is one thing, whining to someone about how they should be playing the game your way is about as silly as it gets.

Back on topic!

Certain organizations were criticized for their choices (how they chose to play the game) to leave STPRO and compared unfavorably to the certain other organizations that chose to stay.   I offered a different perspective, which I believe is a function of this forum, on those respective organizations and if that is whining about how someone is not playing the game how think they should then so is the post I was addressing.

BTW, what are you up to these days?  I've been out of the loop.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I certainly don't blame Shaalira's mob for being better at the whole FacWar thing than my chosen faction apparently is. I'm also not so sure about Pirate factions being excluded from FacWar, since I seem to spend more time dodging Pirate rapegangs than I do anything else - although what a steely-eyed zero-zero warrior gets from 'sploding my cheapfit Condor is debatable!

I also agree that FacWar shouldn't be seen as the PvP training ground. I see it as the PvP equivalent to highsec mission running, instead - a path that doesn't force you to ship-up into Cruisers and Battlecruisers before you've even learned to frigate properly.

On the matter of 'western ethics' it's clear that someone from China, Korea or Japan would be more comfortable with the concept of Heiian than us mob of Europeans and North Americans. That concept of surrendering some individual liberties and benefits in order to prioritise the group is much more stereotypically an Eastern thing. As  regards the State's form of 'authoritarianism' I agree that it is probably less a matter of party vans and brute squads and more a matter of social ostracism and career suicide - although in an environment where these matters determine your housing, medical care, education for your kids and so on, that shouldn't be seen as a softer option.

The Caldari are proud of the State. You don't see a huge flood of dissidents fleeing across the border to the Federation or the Republic  - and that isn't because they're not allowed to travel, either. Ostracism from society is seen as a punishment.