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With all the new PF we have on the Federation (and thus the proto-State and the Gallente-Caldari War), there will clearly be some discussion about its impact on how ideas are discussed moving forward.

Anyway, this might spur a change of topic - I suggest this be split to a new topic to avoid derailment if it should happen.

Gallente-Caldari war. Great details about it's beginning, causes, continuation and eventual end. I especially loved it that all the conclusions I had made based on the available PF so far was proven correct - I had an argument on these very forums once about the supposed 'genocide' of the Caldari - claiming that it wasn't one on an OOC level and hoping more players would agree on this because it seemed few bothered to argue it IC, supposedly just assuming that it was intented to be one.

I think BLoodBird is trying to say he argued from the IC Gallente standpoint that it was never intended as a genocide. Though, that doesn't mean the Caldari should be any less upset about it.

No not really. IIRC none of my toons have ever brought this up IC, I had a topic discussing this OOC here on backstage once where I was trying to point out that AFAIK the PF of the time did not out-right state that the U-Nats wanted an actual genocide with the bombardment of CP (though it was definitly not unthinkable, considering their leanings and outspoken statements from the era, that we all get on our militia ranks ) but to conquer the planet. I wanted more PLAYERS to consider this OOC because the only IC talks I ever saw about the topic for all these years were ones where the genocide attempt was never even challenged, not even by Federals - it created a de-facto agreement that not only was it desired, it was partially done.

Characters spoke of week-long bombardments, million dead, and so on, and none ever dared say that it wasn't as claimed by the Caldari - OFC the Caldari would claim that it was fact - I was trying to point out OOC that the PF was unclear on that and could support both arguments, but no such arguments were ever made IC.

And now, PF clearly state that it was in fact NOT intended, completely flipping previously 'agreed on facts' around. Basically, this PF update codified what I had been trying to get at.

I am going to go after this topic now because I think it is an important one.

Bloodbird is correct in saying that the Ultranationals did not intend genocide.  I will counter that intention matters less than perception when it comes to history.  The below emphasizes are mine.

the Federation Navy was ordered to commence a strategic orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime for a period of a whole day. The objective was to inflict such a loss on the Caldari that they would surrender without question. Hundreds of thousands of casualties were inflicted, indiscriminate of ethnicity (although many Gallente had fled to the underwater cities that were spared from the bombardment, long before the campaign had begun). The natives of Caldari Prime were driven to the countryside, many cities having been reduced to nothing.

...
After a whole day of orbital bombardment, the Federation demanded the unconditional surrender of the Caldari forces. Despite the massive loss of life and the unshakable dominance of the Federation, the Chief Executive Panel refused. In response, the Federation resumed their bombardment at a significantly reduced level, this time with the goal of destroying all military resistance on Caldari Prime, while troops were sent in to assume control of the planet. The Caldari Army’s superior knowledge of the local terrain meant that this campaign was drawn out considerably.

Early on, the Federation Navy found themselves wasting resources on bombarding locations that were believed to be hideouts of Caldari forces, pummeling empty tundra or deserted settlements after having been tricked by the enemy. The morale and spirit of the Caldari Army meant that they were able to lure Federal ground forces into ruined cities or forests only to find themselves surrounded by hostile forces. The Caldari assumed victory in these situations, believing that the hostile navy in orbit would not bombard their own soldiers. They assumed wrong, however, as both Gallente and Caldari soldiers were bombarded indiscriminately.

A ground war was drawn out; though the Federation had numerically and logistically superior forces with orbital dominance, the Caldari had unrivalled knowledge of their world, as well as having their morale boosted considerably by the fact they were fighting for their homes and families. Federal ground forces, meanwhile, were hampered by a low morale caused by a disillusionment with what was occurring. Unlike the Navy in orbit, Federation Army and Marine forces saw the atrocities that were taking place first hand, from the cities that were destroyed by orbital bombardment, to the orders of driving Caldari fighters and civilians from their homes.

The fighting continued for almost a month.

I think there is plenty of room for the perception of genocide to be a valid position for any character in New Eden.  Caldari talking about weeks of bombardment and millions killed seems equally plausible as over the course of a month more people were killed by both the ground and naval forces.*

However, the most important piece isn't in the Operation Heaven's Justice section.  It is in the Tovil Trials section.

With the heavy weight of authoritarianism lifted, voices began to emerge that would have been labelled dissident or traitorous under the previous government. While they still saw the Caldari as selfish and prideful, they nonetheless saw the Ultra-Nationalists as far more criminal than the Caldari could ever be. They vehemently disagreed with the bombardment of Caldari Prime, even going as far as to call it an attempt at genocide, and saw Duvailer and his irk as tyrants that must be punished for their actions in ruling the Federation. President Yiona was in sympathy with these individuals. The Ultra-Nationalists were outlawed and, within the military establishment, senior officers who were associated with the party were stripped off their command. This was not enough to please the masses, however. Duvailer and all his associates, both military and civilian, were arrested, to be put on trial by a special tribunal.

The tribunal was to be held in the partially-reconstructed city of Tovil, mostly as a symbolic gesture. On the tribunal’s staff included the President herself and various other high-ranking Federal politicians. The Ultra-Nationalist leadership included Luc Duvailer, former members of his cabinet, advisors, and ex-officers from the Federation military command at the time. They were charged with gross incompetence, failures of leadership, corruption, violations of Federal Law, and crimes against humanity. Critics derided the trials as nothing but a populist maneuver to please the masses, drawing attention away from the fact that some associates of the Ultra-Nationalists were completely ignored by the authorities.

Despite mild criticism, the trials took place. There was some difficulty in successfully convicting many of the U-Nats of crimes against humanity, as there was insufficient evidence to suggest that genocide was ever the intent to begin with. Luc Duvailer, however, did not escape these accusations. He was found guilty of all charges levied against him, although execution was ruled out, President Yiona believing that this sentence would make the Federation no better than the Ultra-Nationalists. Instead, Luc Duvailer was exiled to the Intaki Syndicate, and was never heard from again.

The Federation found Luc Duvailer, the Federation President who ordered the bombardment of Caldari Prime, guilty of crimes against humanity (and possibly some of the other U-Nats put on trial).  So, Federation history would record that its legal system found Duvailer guilty of attempted genocide against the Caldari.

none ever dared say that it wasn't as claimed by the Caldari

A Federation loyalist claiming that there was no attempt at genocide should be prepared to be labelled a U-Nat and thus an associate of an illegal organization within the Federation.  The reason a Federation character can't say "No, the intent was not genocide" is because the Federation found the man who gave the order guilty of attempted genocide.


*I have a problem with the numbers being throw out concerning causalities in New Eden in general.  A lot of PF seems to be written as if hundreds of thousands is a big number and millions is a really big number.  Frankly, I think the numbers are an order of magnitude too small.

[BloodBird]

So in short, all I've tried to get across OOC is here;

The genocide was not actual - it was definitly percieved by the Caldari (and the Feds as well, brilliantly enough) and they would gladly reffer to it as such in history.

The bombardment was strategic, aiming to destroy vital installations and killing opposition to the ground invasion - The news that a whole week's sustained bombardment of cities took place first was not mentioned in the old PF, IIRC, so that part can be pointed at as the most direct 'kill everyone' period, no-matter the U-nat's intentions.

Beyond the few 'yay I was right' moments there are several things I find highly interesting;

That the U-nats were willing to shell their own forces speaks volumes. Old arguments that the months of U-nat rule is the Fed's darkest hour and that the Fed has evolved and moved on from then is plain as day - hard-liner Caldari will ofc claim this is not so, holding the union responcible for all time and blaming the children for the crimes of the fathers - crimes that were highly unpopular - and eventually punished - at the time.

That the Feds would put the U-nat leadership on trial and condemn them, among other things, for attempted genocide speaks volumes here. There was no actual genoicide (proving the Caldari who claim otherwise wrong) but one can't blame them for thinking so and propagating that belief to their offspring for generations to come, making 'you tried to kill us all' the most common anti-Fed sentiment the State ever had, true or not. Fed players have often argued that the bombing was done by a government considered illigitimate and tyrannical at the time, but this has IIRC gone to mostly deaf ears over the years. This might change in the comming years, as well as the fact Fed players can now claim IC that it was likely intentional - one could ceartainly think so...

The 'Intaki 5000' were mostly criminals and dangerous individuals who had, ironically enough considering the U-Nats, earned their exile. The U-Nat intentions in exiling them however still stands as a political knee-jerk reaction against 'collaborators'.

Out of time, I'll leave this here. I want to state however I'm glad the new PF details explains the blame on both sides rather well and flesh out all the other events, like the Pro-Fed Caldari army rising on CP. Some other time.