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[Ava Starfire]

I may need a deeper explanation on the why ? That sounds quite absurd to me I have to admit. 

Well, it doesn't really matter one way or the other to me personally. It just seems like a solution that would silence any accusations of bias, whether they are fair or not. The channel already has a little-tolerance policy towards supposed baseliner toons - is it really that much of a stretch to restrict or disallow the appearance of non-toon baseliners as well? As for animals, adorable though they may or may not be, they are still baseliners.

And?

[Natalcya Katla]

And?

"And" what?

[Silver Night]

[mod]Thread cleaned. I would appreciate it if I didn't need to do it again, and the discussion really was going quite well for a couple of pages. Remember to use the report button, rather than responding to posts you think break the rules. Post on topic. If you are confused about why your post was nuked, or the rules here on Backstage, check them out in the stickies here.[/mod]

[Makkal]

Right.

This discussion has simmered down, so I'd like to check in. I am not looking to restart the discussion, just get a clear answer as it's been some time and I'm not sure what the rules now are.

If Makkal wanted to bring a slave on 'cam' while she was at the Summit: Yay or nay?

[Iwan Terpalen]

Nay.

[Lyn Farel]

Nay I think, it has not changed as far as I know.

Not sure if it's IC or OOC or both at the same time though. Anyway it is probably still enforced ICly.

[Makkal]

My thanks.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I must say that I think I like the turn I am seeing to IC moderation rather than OOC moderation. Though it does bring up some very fuzzy IC issues. And well, I approve of fuzzy IC issues!

It makes sense to me that non-Amarrian moderators would have problems with what to an Amarrian is fairly benign stuff. It also makes sense to me that some Amarrians would be extremely skeptical of a place with Sansha and Blood raiders on its staff.

It also makes the act of moderation an in character act that characters can react to in character rather than some sort of OOC "oh you shouldn't do that."

I am wondering if the OOC rules could be jettisoned entirely in favor of only IC rules? I am OOC fine with an IC ban on showing slaves. I am not sure that I am ok with an OOC ban on showing slaves.

Edit: Now ICly Gaven is likely to be appalled when the situation becomes clear to him. But that is all good.

[Makkal]

The Summit is an interesting place. It's a sort of 'portal' for new people to RP in EVE, but I think a large number of capsuleers would never go to it if they knew who the moderators were.

[Lyn Farel]

I am wondering if the OOC rules could be jettisoned entirely in favor of only IC rules? I am OOC fine with an IC ban on showing slaves. I am not sure that I am ok with an OOC ban on showing slaves.

Edit: Now ICly Gaven is likely to be appalled when the situation becomes clear to him. But that is all good.

Same.

EDIT : I have already voiced my concerns about that but to clarify I feel that OOC rule enforced ICly to be a serious blow to Amarr RPers, where slavery is central to their culture and fluff. It would be like telling Minmatar not to come with their Voluvals because, you know, Voluval leads to bad things like Voshun. Ban them ICly only, though, and people might debate about it more freely since we wouldn't have to debate about something that takes its source OOCly.

But of course, if it was only IC, the only reason for it would be "not to offend minmatar people" or something...

[Aria Jenneth]

But of course, if it was only IC, the only reason for it would be "not to offend minmatar people" or something...

Assuming The Summit is supposed to promote civility, that's pretty much IC reason enough.

I've played Aria since 2006. In that time, the Amarr-Minmatar debate has not changed one iota at its base; it's just gotten different scenery. I am sick to death, IC, OOC, take your pick, of the same endless, tired, circular discussion.

We do not need unnecessary provocation to start flogging the same long-skeletonized horse all over again. It may be a little hard on the Amarr to have to keep their slaves out of sight, but it's easier to just receive your glass of spiced wine from off-camera than it is to stop (enormously predictable) Matari cries of outrage when the person handing it to you on-camera is a pretty Sebiestor.

My character and I are both bored to tears of that debate, and we therefore both support this rule.

[Morwen Lagann]

I'm going to be as blunt here as I was earlier in this thread, because we seriously did hash this out several times already.

Summit moderation is primarily done IC, whether you choose to believe it or not, except in cases where the offending party is being disruptive as a player.

Kicking people out for being constantly OOC is obviously OOC moderation. Kicking out alts of banned people can go either way depending on the alt(s), and is done on a case by case basis, but if you've been so disruptive as to be banned in the first place, what reason have we to trust you not to be disruptive on your alts?

Moderators telling you to keep slaves off camera is an in-character response to the pointless, old, tired and repeated bullshit drama that we've heard year in and year out with absolutely no change in the arguments, as Aria just said.

As was also stated much earlier in the thread, of the moderators on the team, the majority of them support or make use of slavery in some capacity, be it directly or indirectly. The only exceptions are Ava and possibly Jekaterine. Any claims about the channel being "anti-Amarrian" are, as best put by Graelyn, "fuckin LOL".

[Lyn Farel]

Do you think that I am not bored to death of that myself ? I have been here for more than 6 years now, I have seen my share of the same circular debates. Slavery is only one of them. Religion, Caldari Prime, etc, all have become circular debates. And some like religion often mostly stem out of OOC motivations. Even if I am bored of many of these circular debates, the fact remains that they still are a key, core factor of the lore itself. Denying the debate is like denying that part of the lore, or having an issue with that particular point.

But heh, if we were to ban everything leading to annoying discussions or debates we have seen countless times, you might as well close the Summit. Personally, I have seen them all, nothing new for years. What you are doing right here is to forbid newer players (or just players that find it fun) to have the discussions they want to have, according to your personal tastes. Eventually, even with slaves banned, people still argue about slavery at every occasion, since after all, we do not need a slave to show on screen to start a debate on it. The slaves on screen excuse remains a decoy to my eyes.

And half of the mods being in favor of slavery IC does not lessen the slighest the fact that the rule is anti amarrian, maybe not in essence, but in fact as a result.

[Karmilla Strife]

It's not the discussion that is banned. It's the blatant attempt to troll an outraged response from your faction's enemies. The mods banned showing off slaves because it was a cheap way to provoke anti-slavery characters. They also banned full and partial nudity because that was provoking a similar response from Amarr characters. Yet there is still plenty of sex discussion as well.

[Makkal]

This is exactly the discussion I had hoped wouldn't start again.

Good, bad, or indifferent, the moderators are in charge of the Summit. People using it have to follow their rules. Those rules don't have to meet everyone's definition of fair.

For my part, I sometimes have 'a servant' bring in Makkal's tea or a snack. Yes, they could be a slave, but it's just as likely they're a commoner.* I've yet to have a mod take her to task for it and the various Republic and Federation characters she interacts with have never commented on it.

For people watching to know they're seeing a slave you need something obvious: Collars and chains, groveling before their master, or the capsuleer growling 'you, slave!, fetch my tea.' I'd consider that unnecessarily theatrical and probably a put on to provoke anti-slavery capsuleers.

*Or just part of the elaborate VR Makkal likes to use while in a pod.