Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Did you know:

the 25ers were a political activist organization that fought for repealing starship licensing fees, laying the foundations for the independent capsuleer community.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8

Author Topic: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion  (Read 11656 times)

Tiberious Thessalonia

  • Everyone's favorite philositoaster
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 800
  • Panini Press
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #30 on: 13 Nov 2012, 08:31 »

Actually, it is not a rule of pure semantics since A) we are generally wary about hired help being on the camera at all in any significant sense, B) the particular resonance of slaves, and C) the fact that in the particular instance we have gone through our records and found enough times that the player in question has been warned for this exact thing that it became an issue in its own right.
Logged
Do you see it now?  Something is different.  Something is never was in the first part!

Uraniae

  • Wetgraver
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #31 on: 13 Nov 2012, 09:15 »

Honestly I would love to be able to have more proper, polite, and casual or serious discussions or references to slavery in the Summit.  I like to think that every time I've ever brought up the topic myself, or lead into it myself, that I do my part to keep things from getting out of hand.  I also do understand that over time the course of such conversations does seem to get repetitive and therefore boring to some people, or that others do take the topic and use it to provoke a heated response. 

However, I take a step back and try to look at EVE as a wider universe.  We're talking about a setting where (correct me if I'm wrong) the largest known government and population base either actively endorses slavery or at least simply accepts it as a natural social strata.  I honestly think a lot of the passionate responses end up being over-the-top if you look at the whole of the EVE setting as context.  Part of that I attribute to OOC bleed-over of modern western morals, the other part I attribute to the simple desire to do something out of boredom.

Now I'm not saying I think it's unreasonable that the average Matari or Gallentean abhor slavery, I'm simply saying I think some of the cases are overreactions.  The mere sight of a slave pouring a drink shouldn't provoke huge amounts of bad drama, in my opinion.  Is it really that hard to tune down things and make your IC displeasure at something known with an emoted glare or snide remark?  Does it always have to escalate to hour long shouting matches that end up crossing the IC-OOC line?
Logged

Silas Vitalia

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3211
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #32 on: 13 Nov 2012, 09:55 »

Gyra Rho wins the thread btw.


Some of the 'population' issue also arises from Amarr not being represented in RP community as much as PF population would dictate. If it were 'real' we'd have numerous channels and outlets for Amarr rpers to 'act natural' and they could be as insular as they want.

But it's eve online, and the handful of Amarr RPers don't want to sit in a small room and chat with just each other I imagine.

They are outnumbered by the other three races, instead of the PF other way around, where the other races would be in the minority.



End tangent.




Logged

Tiberious Thessalonia

  • Everyone's favorite philositoaster
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 800
  • Panini Press
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #33 on: 13 Nov 2012, 10:10 »

I am 100% willing to move away from "No slaves in the Summit ever" towards "Go ahead and bring in your slaves but the second you start trying to cause drama with them, prepare for a temp ban".  That was my original position anyways.

Then again, this is going to cause people to scream even harder about moderator bias since by definition its the people who are repeat offenders who are going to be getting the really visible bans.
Logged
Do you see it now?  Something is different.  Something is never was in the first part!

Silas Vitalia

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3211
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #34 on: 13 Nov 2012, 10:24 »

If the goal is for pleasing the most number of people and smooth sailing and less conflict then that should be taken into account as well.

I only brought this up to see what people were thinking. Trolls gonna troll, haters gonna hate probably no matter what rules we have.
Logged

NISYN Aelisha

  • Guest
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #35 on: 13 Nov 2012, 10:31 »

Strict Rule System: Highly Capable Trolls wage a war of system gaming for their own amusement, tearing down the system is enough for them

Loose Rules System: System devours itself as every two-bit troll tries to achieve the above and turns up the volume regardless of community/moderator debate and goal post changing. 

We're trying to shoe horn ideologically, diametrically opposed factions with pre-confirmed OOC bias into a debate chamber moderated by individuals who though rightly 'neutral' in their actions are every bit as human and subject to realtime, instant judgement as the rest of us.  Expecting an exemplar solution from our current mod team, as much as I put a lot of faith in them, is unfair and a calcified set of rules will serve only to give the more capable trolls some solid targets for their activities in their aim to antagonise under the guise of 'fair play'. 

I am not stating that Slave Holders are trolls, though it is an example for trolling (from the pro and against camps).  What I am trying to state is the very subjectivity of trolling, and the fact that we need a consensus on 'acceptable behaviour' in the Summit, is going to drive a wedge with factions regardless, due to the fact that a polarising element such as indentured human labour will only be sustainable when those with a minimum of contact with the channel and a high degree of public decorum, thick skin and no prior IC experience with the 'horrors' of such a system enter the channel.  The sad truth is, a vast majority of us cannot handle putting on our Sunday best, and a small minority of us are going to exploit this fact to their relish and our anguish. 

Should we come up with concrete metrics for 'what is trolling' I guarantee we will be having this discussion again the moment someone with the wit and contacts to back up their position calls the system in question once more.  This time with a point by point deconstruction of the concrete rules to build his/her riposte and subsequent actions within said system on. 

My suggestion is a 100% transparency system.  Anonymous reporting, whilst suitable for delayed time mediums such as Backstage, are not sustainable due to the perception of 'victimisation by mods' in a real time medium.  Retrospective, simple, curt responses to grievances should be submitted with the names of complainants, offenders and officiating mods alike to demonstrate the entirety of the moderation process in a simple 5 minute report would do much to dispel the myth and discourage the potential reality of moderator bias.  I appreciate people want anonymity in their reporting procedure, and I wish I could say our community is mature enough to do without such a measure, but the sad fact is that by and large, this community is not.  Accountability from complainant, through defendant, to judge and jury is, imo, the only way to basically say don't fight the mod, question the entire system, including your actions, that led to this event. 

That is my two pence, full disclosure of names and the systems deployed to execute the law of mod, or a constant circle of iterative system forming as the old (solid or subjective) systems become out dated or torn down by the efforts of those who take relish in subverting the system. 

Note I say this as a relative outsider now, due to my disinterest in 'tolerating other's cultures' outside of culture specific venues.  Personally I feel that the Summit asks too much and is asked to do too many things - it is heaving at the seams with suppressed friction and possesses a gooey center of conformists and peace-makers that I (ICly) have no truck with.  OOCly I respect the vaunted goals of the Summit, the efforts of it's moderator team, but feel that it is trying to be all things to all people - an effort doomed to repeat this cycle of recrimination and anger time and time again. 
Logged

Laerise [PIE]

  • Definetly not a Khanid !
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 534
  • TANKRED ENDURES
    • PIE Forums
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #36 on: 13 Nov 2012, 10:53 »

it is heaving at the seams with suppressed friction and possesses a gooey center of conformists and peace-makers that I (ICly) have no truck with.

It's a shame Gaius is in the retirement home for elderly inquisitors nowadays, I'm sure he'd agree with the both of us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgT-fg01vY  :cube:

Addendum: My main problem ooc with places like the summit is the ammount of veiled trolling that is going on. It's just too bothersome for me to endure passive-agressiveness on that kind of scale whenever people get riled up ooc.
« Last Edit: 13 Nov 2012, 10:55 by Laerise [PIE] »
Logged

Silas Vitalia

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3211
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #37 on: 13 Nov 2012, 11:21 »

Perhaps we should investigate a more 'liberal' alternative channel in which if people don't like what they are seeing they can use the 'block' feature on the neocomm?

I'll look into it.

The only rule will be if IC actions are found to be in 'poor taste' by the hosts then banhammer is wielded.  I've had pretty good success with no RP guests at events shitting things up so maybe that will transfer to a channel....



Logged

Mercy Kincaid

  • Academy Student
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 147
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #38 on: 13 Nov 2012, 11:39 »

Gyra Rho wins the thread btw.
Thanks. It's nice to know someone actually read what I had to say! :)

Also,
Quote
Some of the 'population' issue also arises from Amarr not being represented in RP community as much as PF population would dictate. If it were 'real' we'd have numerous channels and outlets for Amarr rpers to 'act natural' and they could be as insular as they want.
Has this ever gone anywhere?
Logged

Laerise [PIE]

  • Definetly not a Khanid !
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 534
  • TANKRED ENDURES
    • PIE Forums
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #39 on: 13 Nov 2012, 12:02 »

It's been relatively empty lately. I'll definetly remind our pilots to look into it though, we've had a big influx of new blood who's looking for rp'ish stuff to sink their teeth in.
Logged

Ava Starfire

  • Queen of Hashbrowns
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 559
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #40 on: 13 Nov 2012, 14:57 »

Just food for thought.

Esna, Tib, Silas, Morwen, Graelyn, and formerly, Leopold, all own, or in Tib's case, condone, slavery.

I think I am the sole "antislavery" mod.

Thank you.
Logged

Silas Vitalia

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3211
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #41 on: 13 Nov 2012, 15:11 »

Just food for thought.

Esna, Tib, Silas, Morwen, Graelyn, and formerly, Leopold, all own, or in Tib's case, condone, slavery.

I think I am the sole "antislavery" mod.

Thank you.

That that high a % of the moderators' characters condone it and that it is still banned from the channel suggests we are comfortable and open-minded about a diversity of policy directions.
Logged

Uraniae

  • Wetgraver
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #42 on: 13 Nov 2012, 17:02 »

More like it's all a sneaky plot to slowly expose Ava to slavery on a moderation level that will eventually lead to her character accepting it and her returning to the fold as Esna's slave.
Logged

Silas Vitalia

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3211
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #43 on: 13 Nov 2012, 18:16 »

More like it's all a sneaky plot to slowly expose Ava to slavery on a moderation level that will eventually lead to her character accepting it and her returning to the fold as Esna's slave.

Oh the plots we weave!
Logged

Inara Subaka

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 128
  • Business Woman
Re: First: Simmer down Second: slavery Discussion
« Reply #44 on: 13 Nov 2012, 18:41 »

Just food for thought.

Esna, Tib, Silas, Morwen, Graelyn, and formerly, Leopold, all own, or in Tib's case, condone, slavery.

I think I am the sole "antislavery" mod.

Thank you.

Don't forget me ^_^.

But seriously, this is a valid  point.

With the majority of the moderators being either slave holders or condoning of slavery, and (as far as I know in my limited time as a mod) there being no issues with disruption of the channel due to their presence... this suggests that the problem has nothing to do with slavery. The more I read, and the more I think about it, the more I'm willing to wager that the problem is with presentation and willingness to interact on a reasonable level with people who have opposing opinions from yourself.

Esna and I are thinking alike I believe. Don't be a dick!
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8