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[Gesakaarin]

So this is a question I've been asking myself:

"Are the Deteis and Civire separate and distinct cultures and ethnicity in the State?"

I ask because at times it seems the prevailing national and cultural concept is that of being a Caldari first whereas being Deteis or Civire appears to be relegated more to some sort of stereotype as to what sort of Caldari you may be. For example:

Deteis:

-Articulate
-Cunning
-Ruthless
-Dutiful
-Physically lithe or elegant

Civire:

-Focused
-Aggressive
-Stubborn
-Patriotic
-Physically robust with jaws that cut glass

There may even appear at times where a Caldari might be told they're both Deteis and Civire depending on context or social situation:

"That was a very Deteis thing to say." (A wry or sarcastic remark perhaps).
"You're acting like a damn Civire." (Being stubborn and uncompromising).

This only because it appears that the concept of nationalism in the State is held to being, "Caldari" and not Deteis or Civire in the State, and not including the fact that centuries of interbreeding and cultural intermingling seems to make it very difficult to see how individual identification would be attached to being either Deteis or Civire and not just a Caldari.

Thoughts?

[Gottii]

My first thought would be, "what about Achurans?"

[Gesakaarin]

My first thought would be, "what about Achurans?"

Well I'm sure there are Achurans that hold themselves as being Caldari, but they also come from Saisio and not Caldari Prime so might retain an identity and culture that can also ostensibly be said to be, "Achuran."

The question I'm asking myself is if the same could be said for being either Civire or Deteis.

[hellgremlin]

I definitely went with Deteis while creating my character because of the "not a fighter, a thinker" description.

[Silas Vitalia]

"Are the Deteis and Civire separate and distinct cultures and ethnicity in the State?"

My state RP-fu is weak but I imagine that the overriding culture is STATE oriented and not ethnicity-oriented.  The distinctions probably serve as a good broad background but I don't imagine they are ever the overriding factor. A good place to start but perhaps not the be all end all that can be found in some of the other New Eden cultures.

[Gesakaarin]

My state RP-fu is weak but I imagine that the overriding culture is STATE oriented and not ethnicity-oriented.  The distinctions probably serve as a good broad background but I don't imagine they are ever the overriding factor. A good place to start but perhaps not the be all end all that can be found in some of the other New Eden cultures.

Well I think that's where I'm viewing things. National identity is tied to the concept of being Caldari which is also tied to the concept of the State itself. Combined with centuries of potential Civire/Deteis cultural and genetic intermingling the ethnic and national concepts of being Deteis or Civire have been reduced to the point of being cultural stereotypes based on things like history and literature but hold little actual relevance to a modern citizen of the Caldari State.

This only because the PF available seems to emphasize that Civire and Deteis appear to be more philosophical points of difference in being a Caldari and not two actual separate ethnic identities with differing culture and traditions etc.

[lallara zhuul]

I think it might be more like... old tribes that are part of the nation,

For example in Finland we have a few, we have those that live in the eastern Finland that are known to talk a lot and be full of shit.
We have those that live a bit to the east from the middle part that are a bit slow but trustworthy.
I think we like seven in total.

You can't tell them apart by looks, but by culture.

Sharing of some fundamental truths in their lives.

In the context of the State.

All the Civire could share the culturally fundamental Truth that everything is black and white, there is no debating it.
Once you know something to be True and Right then the issue is settled and there is nothing to discuss about.
This could give rise to their traits of Aggressiveness, Stubbornness, Focus and Patriotism.

While the Deteis would hold a culturally fundamental Truth that there is no black and white, everything is shades of grey and by social interaction you find where the other people are on that scale of things when it comes to any issue.
This would give rise to the traits that Deteis would be known for.

Of course this is all just complete and utter speculation, because the bloodlines are so fundamentally different that they need different brain templates in their clones.

Who knows, perhaps in New Eden it is the actual shape of your brain that determines the traits that you have.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I think most Caldari roleplayers treat it as both, actually.

While you're Caldari first and Deteis/Civire second; there is a distinct genetic difference between the two. There's a lot we don't know about how different they are genetically, but there is enough evidence to suggest that it's not simply acting a certain way that makes you Civire or Deteis.

People born under one of the two seem to have as much genetic distinction as True Amarr versus Khanid. The obvious physical differences should be a strong enough sign of that, even before you consider the personality traits, tendency for certain occupations, and social status. It's clear that even after centuries of interbreeding (assuming they have been interbreeding), they are still two very distinct bloodlines.

It is worth considering that perhaps there are remnants of a caste/faction system within the State as far as home life goes. Perhaps there are social taboos against marrying those of the opposite bloodline? I think we might be jumping the gun to suggest that it's okay within the State to interbreed. It may not be a spoken rule, or even a controversial issue within the State... but it also simply may not happen often enough for both bloodlines to mix.

While I hate to bring up RL references, consider how long those of different RL ethnicities have been breeding. Yet we still have very distinct cultures and physical traits of African, Asian, Caucasian, and other ethnicities. Despite 'centuries of interbreeding', it's just not prevalent enough to really mix them all together. Meaning, you still have those of a single major ethnicity greatly outnumbering those of indeterminate ethnicity (those of mixed race). The same could be true for the Caldari.

Even if they do interbreed, the differences between Deteis and Civire and the probable trend to marry within the same bloodline doesn't allow for the erasure of the two cultures.

So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.

[Streya]

I would imagine the two bloodlines originated from separate nation-states on Caldari Prime that unified under the Raata Empire, which laid down the roots of the Caldari State. It's quite possible the Deteis and Civire nation-states differend significantly in terms of culture, with the Deteis probably being more apt at forming huge trade networks and the Civire being excellent military strategists. Provided this speculation is true, the Deteis nation-state likely pursued matters with much more subtlety and behind-closed-doors deals, whereas the Civire nation-state handled things in a much more in-your-face militaristic style.

Extrapolating further from this, I can see the "original" Deteis culture emphasizing heavy education in things like interpersonal communication, business, science, and the like. The "original" Civire society was probably a bit more spartan and emphasized patriotism and quick tactical wit and a sharp mind. A Deteis's rank in society was probably earned by their qualifications and formal training, whereas a Civire's rank in their respective society was likely earned by their actions and experience. The two philosophies were found to be perfectly symbiotic when the two cultures unified, and thus the beginnings of the State's meritocratic system were laid.


Just my wild speculation. Thoughts?

[orange]

Arguing that the Raata Empire laid the foundation for the State is a misnomer.

It would be like arguing that the Greek City States of Pre-Alexander Greece laid the foundation for the modern Greek state.  It is a shared history, to which the Caldari (Deteis & Civire) point, but to argue it laid the foundation for the "modern State" is far reaching.  The modern state is a product of the Caldari majority corporations that became fed up with the Gallente controlled government.  Based on the timeline, the concept of a corporation is of Gallente origin, the first Caldari corporation being formed a generation after the Cultural Deliverance Society arrived on Caldari Prime.

Maybe Thursday night I will be able to weigh in more ably.

[Seriphyn]

So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.

Have to disagree. The Caldari are not exempt from human nature because of their "unique" status (human nature being a big theme in EVE). That means if they were as distinct as, say, Intaki and Jin-Mei, there is no way the State could be as stable as it is. Rallying populations against the "other" is a common human universal. Look at India; proud of their independence and their history. Multi-ethnic and multi-national, but despite breaking off from a larger empire and being very proud of it (all rally as Indian to outsiders, despite their countless sub-nationalities), there's still conflict, esp. between Hindus and Muslims. The differences between Civire and Deteis must be on the scale of, say, groups within England (Kent vs East End London), rather than the more extreme comparison of Brazil vs Korea.

[orange]

The State isn't stable.  Without a semi-credible outside threat, it begins to in fight between the corporations (or even with one).  For hundreds of years, the Caldari (Civire, Deteis, minor ethnicities that no longer exist) have been faced with a semi-credible outside threat - the Gallente.

The differences between Civire and Deteis could be huge (as in White and Black), but the bonds of genetic code don't matter as much as the corporations they all serve and the survival themselves and those around them.  The Deteis and Civire who work for Lai Dai don't trust the Deteis and Civire who work for SuVee (as an example).

[Katrina Oniseki]

So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.

Have to disagree. The Caldari are not exempt from human nature because of their "unique" status (human nature being a big theme in EVE). That means if they were as distinct as, say, Intaki and Jin-Mei, there is no way the State could be as stable as it is. Rallying populations against the "other" is a common human universal. Look at India; proud of their independence and their history. Multi-ethnic and multi-national, but despite breaking off from a larger empire and being very proud of it (all rally as Indian to outsiders, despite their countless sub-nationalities), there's still conflict, esp. between Hindus and Muslims. The differences between Civire and Deteis must be on the scale of, say, groups within England (Kent vs East End London), rather than the more extreme comparison of Brazil vs Korea.

I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for here, or why the link between Deteis and Civire has anything to do with the Gallente.

I said the two are very distinct cultures, yet there is an element of social blending outside the home. You say you disagree, then compare them to both India and two groups in England? I'm not following.

Also, Dex is totally correct here. The State is -not- stable at all. You'd only need to play a Caldari for a week to figure that one out. in fact, these days we can't even manage to present a unified face to outsiders either. Some of us hate Heth, others idolize him, and a sizable chunk don't even care.

I think what you're suggesting is that there would be racial infighting within the State, because it's in human nature. Despite my laughing at the thinly veiled excuse for racism, I have to ask... who said there wasn't infighting? It may not be lynch mobs and pitchforks... but certainly there would be friction there. That doesn't mean the State has to tear itself apart with a civil rights movement.

[Gesakaarin]

Some very interesting thoughts, my thanks to those that responded

The reason it was asked was to try and get some insight into the method of Caldari self-identification which I suppose currently might be considered as:

Deteis/Civire vs. Caldari
Megacorp. Loyal vs. State Loyal
"Old Meritocrat" vs. "New Meritocrat"

Even then it does not appear to be a black and white issue since Caldari at times seem to think in shades of grey and seem quite fine in being able to pick a little from column a and column b, or perhaps a bit more dialectal in thinking where it's a question of scope and degree. A traditionalist Civire loyal to their Mega and the Old Meritocracy might also accept certain notions of Caldari national identity, loyalty to the State and the New Meritocracy, and vice versa. Where they sit on the scale is an individual question.

In regards to the topic, perhaps it really is a question of trying to understand the notion of Caldari nationalism. In many respects I think the State was borne in the same sort of national fires as the French Revolution, Italian Risorigimento, the German unification of 1871 and the establishment of Israel in 1947. Nationalism is an extremely powerful ideology and where the Deteis and Civire fit into concepts of Caldari national identity is an important question to ponder I think.

Being Deteis or Civire appears at times to be well integrated into being Caldari to the point that in many respects they're almost inseparable so being staunchly traditional or not about being Deteis or Civire still does take away from the unified national identity of being a Caldari. If that makes any sense at all.

Granted, I would say the Deteis and Civire and an exploration of their history, culture, traditions and literature would probably also add depth to the Caldari identity.

As for State stability, I think the only thing I might add is that beyond the facade of, "For the State!" it's a very rich and I dare say extremely subtle faction with a very strong undercurrent of conflicting social, political, ideological and corporate forces that makes exploring the place very interesting and intriguing.

The trick, I think, is to view it with the same multiple shades of grey and perspectives the Caldari themselves as a whole seem to maintain.

[Lithium Flower]

Most probably differences between Deteis and Civire gave birth to meritocratic ideals, so each person take its destined place. However, as we can see, meritocratic system doesn't count your heritage, but rather your achievements. In new meritocratic system, unlike the old one, nobody asks what your parents did, but what you can do.

As for nationalism, people call themselves Caldari not because they were born Deteis or Civire, but because they were raised as Caldari, because they got Caldari education, because they live with Caldari and they think as Caldari.