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[Khloe]

FW has always struck me as a neat idea never fully implemented.

The Dark End of Space chron gives some insight into the thought process of having capsule militias duke it out in lowsec. My interpretation is that they are terrified of capsuleers wreaking untold havoc in space, and no one wants to face a fleet of them (see any NPC combat mission for results). Yet at the same time they acknowledge that they need capsuleers to win the war, and CONCORD is left in the middle to corral Pilots into areas they don't have the strength to protect. It also mentions that the Empires need the territory for resources, control, and to give them an opportunity to build up enough to finish the war for good.

So it strikes me that a pilot would fight for a militia for the same reason a pilot works for any corporation: profit, influence, and an opportunity for glory (PvP). They might attract wide eyed fresh recruits from capsule school with nationalistic fervor, but the vets shouldn't be confused at this point why they're really there.

[Casiella]

hah hah hah bless your soul

[Gesakaarin]

Most IGS threads can't get past page 2 without it eventually turning into witless one-liners, factional diatribes that have been repeated continuously or just thinly veiled sniping. FW threads don't generally break the norm from what I've seen. The issue with FW is not in its implementation but in IC terms the CEWPA can be described as a CONCORD following its mandate and containing conflict between signatories by creating an artificial war that it effectively controls and that is fought by proxy by capsuleers. The difficulty I think for some RP'ers is that unless the character is in effect a mercenary fighting for private military corporation or something similar it becomes difficult to justify the violence if one wishes to maintain such things like the moral high ground or talk about fighting for honour and valour.

FW is a dirty, dark and grim affair fought by capsuleer military contractors in the interests of their chosen CONCORD signatory to ensure that if and when the somewhat luke-warm state of political affairs escalates into a proper hot war they are well positioned to fight it. Until that occurs the capsuleers are well rewarded for their mercenary efforts irrespective of whether it was done for profit or patriotism.

So no, I don't think FW kills RP if things are so constructed in an IC context to legitimize what is being done in the warzone. If however one wants to play the knight in shining armour in their RP that's going to change the cluster with their bravery and sword-arm, don't complain about the moral chasm that FW represents as it requires military contractors comfortable working in a very grey area as they fight CONCORD's Forever War.

I don't think it's a problem with FW as much as it is how people choose to frame and rationalize what is done in it, and how well it relates to ones own character. I've enjoyed FW most of the time, I just didn't have the right character anymore to pursue it because they lacked the sense of purpose, idealism and conviction in their cause to not be unaffected in justifying their killing of others and ended up being a psychological casualty with PTSD or something. Even if it was both tragic and amusing watching them turn from a sane human being into a trainwreck after so much pew pew.

Anyway in FW there's only 2 major RP resolutions I can see for a character:

1. Resign and do something else, maybe start talking about the futility of war and the requirements of peace through normalized interstellar relations.

2. Attempt to push for even further escalation of conflict. Commit war crimes and atrocities until the cycle of reciprocation and tit-for-tat results in full blown war with resolution one way or another.

There's also nothing wrong with just taking things as they are and accepting that war can be both profitable and good for business if managed by CONCORD.

Just don't mind all that blood on the hands.

[Merdaneth]

Just don't mind all that blood on the hands.

The hordes of gunless ships piloted by raw recruits seems to result in lots of conquest without a single drop of blood being shed. At least, by capsuleers.

Also, by the current mechanics the Empires seems content by being milked for isk by the capsuleers, who (quite openly) lose systems on purpose to get new capture rewards and who purposely postpone grabbing sovereignity as long as possible while the Empires keep rewarding them for 'not conquering'.

RP-wise, either the Empires are complete idiots to pay capsuleers and make them rich for this farce (which runs counter to their status purposes). In fact, I'm considering the join the TLF myself so as to bleed the Republic of even more isk for no real gains, since that is what this war has become.

This issues become very poignant when you try to discuss strategy and issues IC.

[ArtOfLight]

Just don't mind all that blood on the hands.

The hordes of gunless ships piloted by raw recruits seems to result in lots of conquest without a single drop of blood being shed. At least, by capsuleers.

Also, by the current mechanics the Empires seems content by being milked for isk by the capsuleers, who (quite openly) lose systems on purpose to get new capture rewards and who purposely postpone grabbing sovereignity as long as possible while the Empires keep rewarding them for 'not conquering'.

RP-wise, either the Empires are complete idiots to pay capsuleers and make them rich for this farce (which runs counter to their status purposes). In fact, I'm considering the join the TLF myself so as to bleed the Republic of even more isk for no real gains, since that is what this war has become.

This issues become very poignant when you try to discuss strategy and issues IC.

Precisely this.

[Jev North]

My direct and indirect involvement with FW has exercised my suspension of disbelief immensely. It's one of the big reasons why I'm leaning away from the hard-line, "what happens in the client is what happens" interpretation of EVE RP. It's simply too dumb otherwise.

[Gesakaarin]

The hordes of gunless ships piloted by raw recruits seems to result in lots of conquest without a single drop of blood being shed. At least, by capsuleers.

Also, by the current mechanics the Empires seems content by being milked for isk by the capsuleers, who (quite openly) lose systems on purpose to get new capture rewards and who purposely postpone grabbing sovereignity as long as possible while the Empires keep rewarding them for 'not conquering'.

RP-wise, either the Empires are complete idiots to pay capsuleers and make them rich for this farce (which runs counter to their status purposes). In fact, I'm considering the join the TLF myself so as to bleed the Republic of even more isk for no real gains, since that is what this war has become.

This issues become very poignant when you try to discuss strategy and issues IC.

Well prior to FW, CONCORD was funded by the big four which in turn injected most of the liquid ISK into the capsuleer economy through bounty payouts in addition to a lesser extent, mission agent payouts from the empires. We don't have access to any hard economic data to say that FW is actually bleeding any of the participants dry when it is considered they have been able to keep capsuleer SCC markets afloat for years and without there being any reference to economic damage. Even Heth getting a bailout plan from Sarum wasn't due to the war but due to currency manipulation of KK scrip through black markets in the Syndicate by Roden.

Yes, the war is a farce in most respects but that's due to the fact that from everything I can see it's less a war as much as an artificial system designed by CONCORD to serve their mandate of ensuring the signatories don't go all Mutually Assured Destruction on each other. The empires are stuck with what is in effect an idiotic war because none of them can yet break the Assembly's back and do it properly. That is about the only way I've come to rationalize it.

CCP as CONCORD effectively turned a war into a game and the only issue I have is when they write chrons where political leaders take it extremely seriously but where the mechanics of the war turn it into parody that the participants don't take seriously and simply abuse the CONCORD regulations for their own profit.

The most glaring mistake CCP made with FW is that if it's meant to be a war it's simply not brutal enough. It should be an extremely high risk venture where the consequences for failure should be painful and the very act of taking a single system should be designed to be a bloody meatgrinder fit only for those who actually enjoy pvp or have vested interests, RP or otherwise, to capture it. A simple fix for a start would be to allow only systems to be taken if they are adjacent to one already held and turn FW into a more linear, head to head affair to concentrate fleets more. Some might cry "blob" but would the preference be to have a long series of fleet engagements to take a system like in a proper war or to simply hand it to alt LP plexers?

Probably won't happen so the best I can do is to make the most of it and treat it as just a free wardec and means to profit then work on from there for the sake of my own sanity. That or just toss certain aspects of it down the memory hole.

Edit: Longer than I expected. Basically, I do enjoy FW in many respects it's just that the mechanics require a degree of creativity and rationalization in RP to justify just how they don't make any sense at all when looked at closely.

[Desiderya]

Disagree, it's the low standards set by the capture and control gameplay that kills the RP.

'You're free to disagree, but I'd welcome you illustrating your point a bit more. EVE is filled with gamey mechanics that require a bit of handwaving if you include them in RP. The FW system that's more or less being gamed is still suboptimal, but to me it does not have any meaningful impact on the quality of RP that can come from these conflicts. Most systems are meaningless and only a handful of station systems have strategic value, which means they are actually being fought for - a circumstance that's not the best design decision but can nevertheless be used in rp. Why should a character give some rat's ass about some meaningless backwater systems as long as there are more important flags on the map to fight for. (more below)
 

Alt spies, people with high militia ranks without noteworthy contribution to the war, people moving from Crusade to TLF and back again multiple times, pirate members who target everyone, terrible inter-militia conflicts and horrible game mechanics. The best tactics invite absolutely unAmarrian RP behaviour, which is kinda problematic for a loyalist player. FW is RP-ing on Nightmare mode, an be a lot of fun though. Also, RP-ing with enemies often goes well, and, oddly, most 24th Crusade members have some grudging respect (even love?) for the Amarr Empire and everything around it as a vague RP concept.

Oddly enough, Empire seems to attract the most anarchistic and anti-authoritarian of corps/players. It seems getting noses to point in the same direction has always been harder in the 24th Crusade than in other factions.

Welcome to the world of EVE, where only the minority gives a damn about roleplaying. I'd simply say don't make the entirety of the 24th IC's actions your own. They're hired capsuleer goons, and our characters know that not every capsuleer can be described as responsible, sane or professional.
Can you demand a high level of RP density from other activities in EVE? No, each time you encounter players outside your own little circle you'll face non-RPers, doesn't matter if they're the poor soul you've pirated, war targets or some snoops that entered your wormhole.


Towards the topic of the threat: Try to have an IGS thread about nullsec politics and see what happens. Or look at the ILF/Valkyr conflict and the chestbeating that happened there, that was skirting the OOC lines heavily as well.

Yes, the war is a farce in most respects but that's due to the fact that from everything I can see it's less a war as much as an artificial system designed by CONCORD to serve their mandate of ensuring the signatories don't go all Mutually Assured Destruction on each other. The empires are stuck with what is in effect an idiotic war because none of them can yet break the Assembly's back and do it properly. That is about the only way I've come to rationalize it.

Exactly. It's a bit of a pointless war. But that doesn't mean that it's the wise move to not involve yourself into it - it is sort of a war and it won't stop by not looking at it. Because as pointless as it may be, there are still economic benefits (System control) as well as real losses (for the empires) attached to it. So the war is in so far pointless as that it will not lead to complete dominance of one side over the other, ie "winning". It will, however, shift the balance of power around in - through CONCORD's eyes - acceptable boundaries.
From a loyalist's perspective pushing the influence will strengthen the position of one own's faction at least in relation to its opponent.

[Louella Dougans]

LP store shenaniganery.

The LP store for normal corporations is an isk sink, that takes more ISK than is paid out in mission rewards and bonuses. Normal corporations actually make ISK from capsuleers on the whole.

The FW lp store takes this effect and magnifies it. FW does not give out ISK. The isk spent on the lp store comes from concord bounties given to other capsuleers.

Character A does missions from Kaalakiota, they are paid bounties by Concord, and mission rewards from Kaalakiota. They then spend more than Kaalakiota pays them in the LP store, resulting in a small transfer of ISK from CONCORD to Kaalakiota.

Character B is in the State Protectorate, they make their ISK from purchasing things in the LP store and selling them to character A at a profit. This results in a moderate transfer of ISK from CONCORD to the State Protectorate.

CONCORD of course, makes its isk from the SCC trade on market transactions, of which there are a Lot on the capsuleer market, and many more on the NPC market that players can't see.

So, Faction Warfare, results in the 4 signatory powers receiving some not insignificant amounts of ISK back from CONCORD, which would allow them to pay for a lot of things, possibly including the costs incurred in creating this artificial playground for capsuleers and associated military hardware testing facilities.

[Merdaneth]

LP store shenaniganery.

The LP store for normal corporations is an isk sink, that takes more ISK than is paid out in mission rewards and bonuses. Normal corporations actually make ISK from capsuleers on the whole.

The FW lp store takes this effect and magnifies it. FW does not give out ISK. The isk spent on the lp store comes from concord bounties given to other capsuleers.

It is a game-technical isk sink, but if you to sell capsuleers below market price as an NPC corporation, you are losing isk (opportunity cost).

So, Faction Warfare, results in the 4 signatory powers receiving some not insignificant amounts of ISK back from CONCORD, which would allow them to pay for a lot of things, possibly including the costs incurred in creating this artificial playground for capsuleers and associated military hardware testing facilities.

Unfortunately, no. That is the same thinking that leads miners to believe they are getting minerals for free, so that if they build something from those minerals and sell it, its all profit. The Empires are putting resources into creating +5 implants, resources which are valued at an X amount of isk on the market. If they sell it to capsuleers for the lower price of Y, then they are actually losing X - Y isk. That is isk/resources they could have spend developing the Republic economy, keep hungry people fed or built more capitals to defend against the Empire.

What I've seen in numbers its likely that the last months has of war has cost the Republic trillions of isk. Why would the Republic sustain this kind of expenditure for capsuleers who are losing systems to the enemy on purpose so that they can recapture them for more rewards?

In fact, due to the fact that the Amarr LP store is largely worthless at low conversion levels and most systems are captured without loss of Amarr Navy vessels (due to gunless frigates), one could honestly claim that this war is very, very cheap for the Empire.

[Matariki Rain]

Why would the Republic sustain this kind of expenditure for capsuleers who are losing systems to the enemy on purpose so that they can recapture them for more rewards?

Edited version: That little piece of disinformation actually got me riled for a moment. Well done.

[Casiella]

Mata: that's actually true. Some bloggers have discussed this openly now that it's happened a few times.

[Graelyn]

A FEW times?

Both sides are doing this rampantly.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

The documented proof:

http://www.gamerchick.net/2012/06/backwards-yet-lucrative-strategy.html

http://www.gamerchick.net/2012/06/math-behind-backward-strategy.html#more

The tl;dr sentence that sums it all up:

So long as the Minmatar maintain a certain number of systems, it is of more monetary benefit for them to allow the Amarr to take a few systems (since defending them is of no profit) and simply taking them or other systems back for the purpose of farming the LP.

Another bit of gold talking about how a winning side has all the incentive for most sane players to join:

It is also important to note that when the Amarr take a system, using the same scenario in the example above but using their own LP to ISK ratio and lack of warzone control payout bonuses, they will net 4-5 billion ISK in taking a system. Therefore, for every system the Minmatar takes back that the Amarr took from them Post-Inferno, we net more than 3 times as much profit.

This sentence is actually a bit inaccurate; with the Amarr at T1 and the Minmatar at T5, it's actually 16 times as much profit.

[Matariki Rain]

Aldrith, I don't dispute that it's the sensible thing to do from the point of view of maximising income. Jester even described it as an IQ test, which I find annoying for assuming that the primary goal in EVE is to make ISK.

The implication that it's what the Minmatar were doing in the last few weeks, when the Amarr side was holding systems vulnerable and farmable while explicitly not flipping them, did not fit with my perception.

I assume that each side has a narrative about what the other side is up to, and we just brought those narratives OOC.