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[Seriphyn]

This is related to the slavery discussion, but Amarr/Caldari in general, and even Minmatar/Gallente.

The Brothers of Freedom event saw State authorities gun down sixty-five thousand protesters. It is likely that the Caldari see them more as 'traitors' than protesters. There's a Caldari storyline mission I believe, that mentions that the Caldari see those who migrate to the Federation to seek employment as traitors and scum of the earth.

The question I pose is; why would the average and loyal Caldari individual see anything wrong with the authorities gunning down 65k 'traitors'? An answer would come WITHOUT rationalizing it as a Western consumer. We would see stuff wrong with it because of natural/inalienable rights we have as Westerners, that people are allowed to protest against our government. But we rationalize that as Westerners. The Caldari are not Westerners; they are Caldari. They do not believe in democracy, individual inalienable rights etc.

But whenever I see someone RP a Caldari as per the "corporate dictatorship" description (right there in the character creation), they get alienated, just like slavers. I mean, Diana Kim is a caricature, but in the right direction IMO. Same with extreme Gallente who act all like cultural colonialists. That is equally within the PF's bounds because it says that the Gallente vary widely in their opinion, unlike the other races.

(BTW, I'm not saying the Fed don't oppress; they just don't get caught doing it. They'd rather knock off the ring leaders and call it a hovercar accident, whereas State would be like "Correct, we took care of all traitors")

It's just the general idea of RPing beyond our comfort zones, regardless of faction. The acceptable moral standard in the Summit and elsewhere is basically as per our RL/Internet moral standard. But EVE is not RL (stfu ccp), nor the Internet. Capsuleers must respect self-determination, individualism, several inalienable rights (that don't seem to have any source within the world), and so forth. Meanwhile, most of New Eden don't bother with doing so at all.

Perhaps it's just a facet of capsuleer culture. It all just seems like spineless UoC Gallenteans to me, heh. And ofc, playing a Gallente in-character, calling other characters "You all sound like Gallenteans to me" will be met with hostility...even if by all measures, everyone IS behaving Gallente-ish (that said, the Dove kind rather than the cultural imperialist kind).

Alternatively, at the end of the day, Summit RP is "light" RP, so playing proxies of ourselves with similar RL viewpoints is the order of the day. And there's nothing wrong with that; like I said, not everyone has the time/effort to go Full Srs with RP. But at the same time, I don't see why people who attempt to RP the faction as per the source material (and not by the Summit's Moral Consensus) should get shot down. I perfectly imagine, on numerous times, completely newb RPers who pick Caldari in the character generation reading them as "ruthless and cold", go into the Summit COMPLETELY unaware of the moral standards established. They then go to RP how they think Caldari would act according to the PF they've read so far, only to get torn to pieces because of how politically offensive they sound to us as players.

[Louella Dougans]

It would be a waste of resources. specifically 65 thousand persons, who would have at least some productive skills. Could be employed in a form of conscription in terraforming, or other projects that would be of benefit to the State.

[hellgremlin]

Speaking from a Caldari authoritarian mindset...

At first, I'd mind because the 65,000 dead protesters are a waste of assets.

After a bit of thought, I'd realize that the message sent by gunning down 65,000 protesters is "If you protest, the same will happen to you - MAINTAIN PRODUCTIVITY, CITIZEN. IT IS YOUR DUTY TO THE STATE."

Kill 65k to boost the productivity of billions of other citizens? That's what we call a sound investment 'round these parts!

[Seriphyn]

wtf. this is all wrong. i was still typing :\

NOT FINISHED DAMNIT

ok finished

[Jev North]

The question I pose is; why would the average and loyal Caldari individual see anything wrong with the authorities gunning down 65k 'traitors'?

Shooting someone means acknowledging they exist. Traitors, dishonored dissenters, and other guri scum should vanish quietly into exile or fall on their swords, not need messy executions and their blood washed off the streets.

Less flippantly - it strikes me that while militaristic, collectivist, and ruthless, the Caldari don't give the impression of being callous about the value of human life. Or at least, not especially more so than most other factions. Possibly as a consequence of their underpopulation. I seem to recall a chronicle about them pacifying a conquered Gallente settlement through non-lethal weaponry and sociological manipulation, rather than just going in guns blazing, shooting any resistance, and setting up a dictatorship?

[Makkal]

Collar them, chip them, put them to work.

[hellgremlin]

Ah, memories! I just remembered that during my tenure with Endless Corporation as a Caldari corporate bigwig (Eve beta era,) I wrote a short story about just this. Let's see if I can find the archive... it depicts pretty much how the Caldari deal with protests

Ah, here we are. Found it. Image links are broken, so I'll link them in a spoiler below.

http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c4_give_peace_a_chance.php

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

The Caldari don't mess around.

[Reyd Karris]

I perfectly imagine, on numerous times, completely newb RPers who pick Caldari in the character generation reading them as "ruthless and cold", go into the Summit COMPLETELY unaware of the moral standards established. They then go to RP how they think Caldari would act according to the PF they've read so far, only to get torn to pieces because of how politically offensive they sound to us as players.

It's called culture shock.

[Silas Vitalia]

I especially imagine under Tibus Heth the level of repression and reprisals have increased quite a bit.

[Khloe]

If the Caldari corporations have strict control of their own media they would probably either downplay the incident or spin it in a fashion that is socially acceptable. Murder is still a moral faux pas in the Empires, so framing the incident that justifies their deaths would be the most prudent response. As for whether a Caldari citizen would feel justified in their deaths is up to the individual I suppose. I'm sure some of the hard line patriots would approve of their action, while those fearful of the regime might see this as a sad day for the State. There's room for diversity in opinions.

[Desiderya]

Jev, you mean that one:
http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=27-07-09

[orange]

You mean the event where the Caldari Independent Navy Reserve (CAIN) destroyed a freighter full of people on orders from the Caldari Navy alongside a shadow organization?

Also, there is a difference between Ishukone characters and say KK or SuVee characters.  There are a fair number of public Ishukone characters and fewer Patriots and even fewer Practicals.  You are more likely to encounter a Caldari capsuleer with the Ishukone mindset than the rest.

[Natalcya Katla]

I'm not convinced this issue is an issue at all. When somebody expresses any opinion on the Summit, they should expect to be slammed for it by those who hold opposing views. Expressing an opinion implies consent to PVP, just like undocking does.

There are plenty of characters within the EVE RP sphere who hold beliefs and opinions that are far removed from Western morality. I'd include my own characters in this list. They are not an endangered species, and they warrant no special consideration in my opinion.

[Gesakaarin]

There's nothing wrong with authoritarianism, but I think rather how that authoritarianism is expressed in public. What I've always found interesting about the Caldari, is that as an individual they're difficult to know unless they happen to trust you, and even then unless you're family or married to one you'll probably never really know one entirely. What it comes down to is the concept of, "Public face" and the varied masks a Caldari must wear in a society that for all its technological advancement is still deeply steeped in history, tradition and very strong cultural conformity pressures that place high demands on duty, obligation and responsibility to the, "Greater Good" that is expressed through all sorts of social protocols, procedures and most importantly, politeness.

These values are ingrained into the citizens of the State because it is the society they were born into and for a Caldari they probably don't see anything wrong with what may be an authoritarian system because their cultural values are not premised on liberalism. In a society that has references to expectations of ritual suicide for failure or shame, why would the deaths of 65,000 dissidents be unacceptable if it is considered that through their actions they broke face, and brought dishonour and shame to their families, failed the State, and discredited their Corporation and fellow citizens? A tragedy in the modern day is legitimized in a fictional culture and society that is neither a democracy nor is it liberal in the classical sense. One may even see that disagreement in the State with Tibus Heth is not due to the fact that he is in effect a dictator by most modern standards but rather that he broke face and asserted that there were deficiencies in the State structure and by extension then Caldari society and tradition, interceding in Megacorp. authority aside.

As for the Summit, when I'm playing a Caldari there she's always wearing her public mask and whilst yes, I would describe her as a particularly patriotic and ruthless citizen of Sukuuvestaa she considers the best way to advance her agendas is by being a polite conversationalist. Not because she cares all that much about the moral standards or opinions of foreigners but because by smiling and being unfailingly polite to others is a way to build contacts and network with capsuleers. Some may consider it duplicitous but at the end of the day she's a Caldari and a SuVee citizen and everyone else is either a foreigner or aligned with another Mega so there is no shame in being to some extent misleading so long as it serves the interests of her company because at the end of the day the only standards she abides by is that of the Caldari State and not the thoughts and opinions of ignorant foreigners.

I will also add that there at times appears to be some misconception regarding the terms Patriot, Practical and Liberal as being political and ideological standards and not purely business perspectives on how the State should engage in foreign markets. It's almost like the underlying principles tend to become character stereotypes with:

Patriot: Caldari Prime! For the State!

Liberal: Can't we all just be friends, guys?

Practical: Building better worlds for Weyland-Yutani SuVee.

I tend to think the Caldari as a people are far more nuanced and subtle in their mindsets to be a blend of a variety of different perspectives.

My thoughts anyway.

[Vikarion]

It should also be noted that the entire State was apparently caught up in a wave of concern when a few miners were caught in a collapsed mine, and corporate heads rolled over it.

I don't think that the portrayal of the Caldari as fascists or collectivists really works with all the PF we have. Rather, I see them as very "honorable", in the sense of keeping their word, honoring a contract, etc.

If a bunch of Caldari decide to try and renege on the obligations a Caldari citizen retains, then the other citizens won't give a damn what happens to them. But if the particular citizens in question are following the rules, are living up to their obligations, then the authorities had better live up to their end. That's why Tibus Heth had such difficulty getting Caldari courts to allow him powers over Sansha sympathizers that are, as far as I understand, less extensive than those that the U.S. government has over its citizens.

This is a point that I think Svetlana Scarlet also made: the MegaCorps aren't part of the Caldari State, they are the State, and the people are the corporations. Your average Caldari would probably respond to the idea of living without the MegaCorps like an American would respond to the suggestion that they shred the Constitution.

Is this authoritarian? Well, yes and no. Your average Caldari is fairly free, from what we see in the PF, to express personal views in private settings, to buy what he wants, and to read and write what he wants. We know that they have shows that have critical commentary of the MegaCorp's decisions and government. I suspect where the line lies is when private disagreement turns into public opposition. It's one thing to complain about your manager in a bar, it's quite another to hold a demonstration about Intaki immigrants taking all the jobs.