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[Namkhai Sin]

Has there been any word in PF or player discussion on how Amarrians might conceptualize the idea of sainthood? Has it been indicated anywhere that Amarr religion understands saints to be actively interceding for the faithful in the presence of God, or have they mostly been described as figures of historical significance and public honor? Would it be expected, for example, for a citizen pray "through the prayers of St. Junip" or "through the intercession of St. Tetrimon," as a real-world Roman Catholic might, or would that be alien to the framework of Amarr religion?

[ArtOfLight]

My understanding is that the saints are primarily seen as bastions of the faith and honored public figures but not patrons of intercession or holders over any realm of life. I don't believe there's any indication that the Amarr pray to or through the saints but rather cherish and revere the teachings, history and life of the saints, exonerating them as examples of righteousness.

[Lyn Farel]

Canonized figures mostly, yes.

The ones intecerding or representing God are mostly the clergy (priests) or just refered as "divine" like the Empress, or the Sefrims.

[Ilsenae Alexandros]

However there's nothing to say that your character might not pray to them in an intercessory fashion as a personal quirk of how they pray and worship.

[Mitara Newelle]

Saint Mitara.

'Nuff said.

 

[Louella Dougans]

"St. Tal-Romon is an Amarr patron saint of adventurers and those filled with wanderlust. He is notable as the first Udorian to be sainted."

that's the only saint who appears to be a patron of anything.

but then again, there's not much about any of the other saints that are known.

[lallara zhuul]

There is a cathedral for an Ammatar Saint somewhere?

I would think that they are the little gods of the Amarrian religion.

Each have an aspect of life and on top of worshipping God, you give them a prayer and light a votive.

[Makkal]

I'm going to toss out a few of my assumptions for Holy (Dark) Amarr when I play Makkal. 

• Miracles happen. Not just in the past but they can and do happen in the present day.
• Some people are spiritually superior to others. Some of these people can commune with God or possibly with the Seraphs. Their words, teachings, and/or actions are 'divinely inspired.'
• A person exists after death in the form of a soul.
• Souls of the dead may ascend to heaven. In heaven there's a celestial hierarchy with God as the Emperor/King, Seraphs as the Heirs, and the best souls as Holders.
• Important people in one’s clan are likely Holders in heaven. If you communicate with them, they might use their influence to help you.
• This is totally not ancestor worship. Having a shrine in your house to a dead relative is not blasphemous at all. They are now saints.

You poor Empire folk living under the misguided Theology Council might think differently. I guess none of your ancestors were good enough to become saints.

[ArtOfLight]

Heh, the Theology Council isn't VERY MUCH different from that from my own research (which has been extensive but that doesn't make me right about everything).

Essentially the Amarr go something along these lines:

• Miracles happen. Certainly in the past and certainly in the present.
• There are definitely levels of spiritual superiority (Emperor/Empress, Saints, high-clergy, etc) and direct communion with Sefrim and God is possible
• A person exists after death in the form of a soul
• Souls of the dead ascend to Paradise (there is no Hell). In Paradise there is a celestial hierarchy with God as Sovereign, Sefrim being the messengers and direct servants of God (think high government positions like Chancellor), the faithful (called the Amarr) becoming Holders, the confused and searching being Commoners and the rebellious (atheistic, anti-theistic, heretics) being Serfs.
• Saints are canonized only by the Theology Council
• Praying to anyone or anything but God is heresy

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd not necessarily agree with that last point, Art:

If you mean prayer as communication with an entity you worship and venerate, then, yes, praying to anything as God is heresy, because God is the only being to be worshiped.

If it's merely an act of communication with a deceased one - maybe a saint or just some ancestor - it's not heresy, I'd say, as long as you don't mean to venerate and worship the dead person, but to communicate with it and ask it for intervening with God on your behalf then I don't see how that is heresy. It might indeed be 'going through the proper channels'. Worst case it is heterodox.

having a shrine dedicated to ancestors in your household might not be orthodox either, but it's certainly not a bad idea to pray for their spiritual wellbeing in their past life, so a dedicated space for that isn't a bad idea either, no?

If Khanids just declare some of their ancestors 'Saints' that is of course heresy. It also shows how infantile they are in regards to these things. ;P

[ArtOfLight]

We don't disagree Nico.

I implied (though perhaps erroneously) that prayer is an act of worshipful submission and communication.

Communication with the deceased would not be considered "prayer" but simply that, communication.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Then we agree, indeed.