Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Matariki Rain]

It's kind'a weird to assume that while Amarrians took it for granted that the goal of slavery is the enlightenment of slaves but it occurred to no one that raping slaves might be counterproductive in that regard.

Nico, how do you reconcile the Amarrian Breeding Facility and Breeder Slave descriptions with that position?


(Edited to replace the first link with a more direct database-grab one.)
(Edited again to note that it looks like the Amarrian Breeding Facility isn't a "live" item: it sounds like it was pulled from a DB dump but not actually used in game? I'm not sure how we deal with that sort of stuff as PF, and wouldn't push the case too hard. Breeder Slave commodities are, however, very much canon, and the write-up references breeder colonies.)
(Edited a third time to say that the Amarrian Breeding Facility does seem to have been deployed, and turns up in a Level 5 mission: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=BreedingFacility5 )

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, I don't reconcile it at all. I also oftentimes just shake my head at the inconsistencies of PF a lot.

Also, both seem to have been removed from game. At least I can't find breeder slaves on the market in EVE and none of them in EVElopedia.

Maybe it's been a retcon for consistencies sake?

[Gottii]

Look, just because something is contrary to the law of the land, or even the spirit, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Saying "abuse of slaves doesnt happen because its contrary to the religious laws and beliefs" is like saying "rape doesnt happen in the US or Europe because its contrary to their laws and beliefs."  Of course it happens. 

Just because something is contrary to public law or sentiment doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Quite the opposite in fact.

But here's what I dont get. 

Why does Amarrian slavery need to be good?  Or even "okayish"?

EVE is a dark sci-fi world.  Dark.  Dystopian. 

Saying "yes, Amarrian slavery is like current and past slavery, but better" is not Dystopian.  Thats Utopian.

Does this mean you cant play an Amarrian correctly and be a good guy?  Why yes it does. 

But guess what.  You cant play anyEVE character correctly and be the good guy.

This is not a game where youre going to be a classic "good guy".  The less you try to play the good guy, the more fun you will have.   

Can your character be a morally (keep in mind, that would mean he would embody Amarrian morals) upright, thoughtful, kind, even benevolent in thought and motivation and still allow/participate in such an evil institution? 

Of course it does.  Otherwise good people do bad things all the time.  We overlook and rationalize otherwise awful things every day.  I didnt really protest or get up in arms regarding the heroic stand and unjust suffering the Syrian civilians and army deserters are facing down, even with the random sniping and artillery barrages.  I know I should, but I didnt. (not to say Im a good person, but you get the idea)  Im locked in my own little world, just like everyone else.  Its part and parcel of being a human being.  Its realistic.

Amarrians arent really any worse or better than say the Minmatar.  Its just the Minmatar have an objectively more sympathetic and moral stance to our eyes (in the sense that I think we all would agree that anyone has the right to defend themselves from enslavement).

But does that make them the good guys?  Not at all.  Far from it, in fact. 

Slavery should not have to be good to play a "good-guy" Amarrian correctly.  In fact, to try to make slavery palatable is and certainly unrealistic and maybe even a tad bit unethical. 

If you just allow slavery to be slavery, and build your character from there, its a hell of a lot easier.

Heres what bothers me about how people respond to the Amarr bloc in general and slavery in particular. 

There is a lot of real world venom and vitriol regarding hatred toward the Amarr.  And really, I dont think its slavery. 

I mean, the Angels, Guristas, Serpentis, Blood Raiders, etc are all slavers.  How often are they called slavers and hissed and booed in the IGS?  Practically never.  Indeed, its "cool" to be part of those factions.

My belief is that people react so negatively to the Amarr because they have a chance to strike out against religion.   

The Internet is often called "the church of atheism" and you dont have to go far to find people dogging various faiths online, especially Christianity and such.  The Amarr happen to be an easy punching bag for that, with slavery the cudgel of choice, and you get a lot of thinly veiled OOC loathing that often finds its way into a lot of anti-Amarrian RP.

I pretty much dislike it.  Im pretty much agnostic on the subject, literally and figuratively, but I hate when some Minmatar is all dogging the idea of gods and religion and such.  The Minmatar have never been portrayed as atheists.  Far from it, if the Voluval is any indication, theyre quite spiritual.  Its a war between faiths, not a war about faith.   

I think it makes a lot of Amarrian players a bit uncomfortable, they pick up on that, kinda like dentists having the highest suicide rate because everyone loathes seeing them.  it certainly would make me defensive. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Why does Amarrian slavery need to be obviously evil?

In fact, I'd claim that portraying Amarrian slavery as "like past and current slavery but better" makes it in fact more dystopian and less utopian. The subtle evil, the one that is hard to distinguish from something good makes a much more interesting, thought provoking and shocking thing than the banality of obvious evil.

To be honest, I think that many people - or at least some - arguing against a slavery that is hard to stamp as 'evil' exactly because they're so appaled and shocked by the idea that slavery might be hard to distinguish from things that are good.

P.S.: On the religion issue I agree.

[Ilsenae Alexandros]

+10000 to everything Gottii said

[Matariki Rain]

Well, I don't reconcile it at all. I also oftentimes just shake my head at the inconsistencies of PF a lot.

Also, both seem to have been removed from game. At least I can't find breeder slaves on the market in EVE and none of them in EVElopedia.

Maybe it's been a retcon for consistencies sake?

Breeder Slave is still in game: check contracts or try auto linking the item name.

Why do you think this is an inconsistency?

[Gottii]

Why does Amarrian slavery need to be obviously evil?

In fact, I'd claim that portraying Amarrian slavery as "like past and current slavery but better" makes it in fact more dystopian and less utopian. The subtle evil, the one that is hard to distinguish from something good makes a much more interesting, thought provoking and shocking thing than the banality of obvious evil.

To be honest, I think that many people - or at least some - arguing against a slavery that is hard to stamp as 'evil' exactly because they're so appaled and shocked by the idea that slavery might be hard to distinguish from things that are good.

P.S.: On the religion issue I agree.

Well, lets talk about what goes on in Amarrian slavery. 

Here's just a sampling of PF regarding Amarrian slavery practices.

The Human Endurance Program  :  http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Human_Endurance_Program

Highlights include toying with peoples DNA, torturing people until they die simply to test pain tolerance, test subjects "bred like animals", eugenics, and taking innocent children and condemning them to a brutal militaristic life and likely death on a battlefield. (the Kameiras)

Slavery:  http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery

PF states that slaves are kept under control by one of two basic means:  threat of violence or drugs (or TCMCs or such)

We all get that Vitoc is awful.  So are the other drugs.  But everyone downplays what living in constant fear of punishment, pain and violence is like. 

Threatening someone with torture (which is what whipping is, it hurts like hell) is a bad thing.  Cruel.  Making someone live in fear is cruelty.  Its not subtle. 

The slave of a "nice" owner likely just isnt thinking "i love my master, I will work hard for him because hes nice".  He's likely thinking "I love my master, he's nice, and I will work hard for me, especially because I dont want him to go into financial hard times and sell me to a really mean master, where Im possibly whipped and tortured if I dont perform or if he has a bad day."  Its living in fear one degree removed. 

In the Slavery PF blurb, it mentions that mining slaves "have a lifespan of weeks". 

In this Chronicle  http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr01-01 "tens of thousands" of Minmatar slaves died to produce one Titan.  Thats sacrificing a whole good sized town. 


In case you thought slaves liking their Masters were common, in this Chronicle http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=25-12-08-b you'll find the line  "It was said in the high halls of Amarr society that Torsad-Laur was the only slave-inhabited quarter where the gentry could walk at night without being attacked – and where, moreover, one could even have a conversation with a slave, if one were inclined toward an evening’s debasement."

Positive interactions between Master and slave seem fairly rare.  Violence and fear a lot more common.

And the Amarrians cut off the hands of their own newborns to satisfy an ancient, venal, arbitrary law.  Found here:  http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jun01

Read that again.  They cut off the hands of their own male newborns.  Royal blood.  If they will do that to a newborn prince, what are they capable of to do to a slave?

Im sorry Nicoletta, I just cant really see any PF out there that shows the kind of slavery youre defining.  If Im missing some, I would love to see any.  (no sarcasm, really would) 

EDIT:  What Mata said.  I dont think those linked items are inconsistent at all.  In fact they seem to be quite consistent with other PF out there on the subject.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

So, the basic argument is: crimes do (at times) happen? (I think that's also what you're saying, basically, Syylara?) That sounds kind'a trivial to me.

No, I was describing that sexual abuse (well, abuse in general) happens more frequently to the most exploitable available class of people and that in terms of the cultures presented to us in EVE, the Amarr tend to have a paradigm that people readily and easily understand in this regard.

That means those who might be inclined to portray this behavior are more likely to choose Amarr characters as well as those wishing to inveigh against the behavior will tend to set their sights on them.  The other cultures don't have quite the same dichotomous presentation of socioeconomic stratification and so don't provide the same "critical mass" of the same offender-victim paradigm.

I was also making a minor point that while I often see in RP that the sex is the focus of the issue, the real phenomenon is much more complex.  In sexual abuse, sex is a choice of weapon used and is an extension (admittedly perhaps more depraved) of abuse in general.  The goal is not to beat on someone in physical abuse, the goal is not sexual release in sexual abuse.  The goal is to deprive another person of security, self-determination, sense of well-being and such that they will ultimately 'break' and capitulate (or in some cases simply be incapable of overpowering their attacker enough to successfully resist)...as I said, it is about power and control.

[Ulphus]

I mean, the Angels, Guristas, Serpentis, Blood Raiders, etc are all slavers.  How often are they called slavers and hissed and booed in the IGS?  Practically never.  Indeed, its "cool" to be part of those factions.

I've been pretty anti the Angels, Serps and Sansha for this specific reason (Angels more than others because they're local) for years. It just happens that I don't post on IGS all that often, and my anti- mostly comes down to not talking to them.

But internal to various internal forums in EM, I've long argued that ex-angel pilots should be at least as scrutinised as ex-amarr pilots.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Mata:

So, okay, there are 5 Breeder Slaves in all EVE buyable. Seems to me like some leftovers CCP didn't mind to get rid of.

So, do I think it's an inconsistency? Honestly I haven't put too much thought into it. It might as well be one. It's not that EVE PF is without inconsistencies, if you see what I'm pointing at here.

My point isn't that slave abuse can't happen in the Empire. Nor that it needs to be good. My point is that Slavery isn't something that analytically implies abuse and that there is good reason to assume that within the Empire it's not accepted to casually bang your slaves when you feel like it.

There might be reason to assume otherwise, though I think it's less compelling. That the Romans and and some other cultures did it, isn't an argument that leads to the conclusion that the Amarr are doing it, too. If anything, it shows that it is possible. But it's also possible that some tribal cultures revere purple cows as gods sending miraculous food from the world above - e.g. cargo cults. Now, that doesn't mean that Matari tribals are revering purple cows as godlike entities.

I think in the end it boils down to personal preference what stance one takes.

-

Gottii:

As to threats of violence and isolation: What do you think how prisoners are kept in line? In what light is the system of rehabilitating prisoners usually depicted in modern societies?

I think there's a distinction between 'nice' and 'good'.

Also, just because the Amarr do some things that qualify as slave abuse and accept them socially, it doesn't mean that they do necessarily do the things that are not mentioned and qualify as well as abuse are equally accepted in Amarrian society.

-

Syylara:

So you were aiming at giving an explanation why the theme is so prevalent among the Amarr? In that case I'd say you're certainly onto something.

It's also not saying too much about how we should think about Amarr society, but more about why we (or many people) think about it as we do.

[Gottii]

I mean, the Angels, Guristas, Serpentis, Blood Raiders, etc are all slavers.  How often are they called slavers and hissed and booed in the IGS?  Practically never.  Indeed, its "cool" to be part of those factions.

I've been pretty anti the Angels, Serps and Sansha for this specific reason (Angels more than others because they're local) for years. It just happens that I don't post on IGS all that often, and my anti- mostly comes down to not talking to them.

But internal to various internal forums in EM, I've long argued that ex-angel pilots should be at least as scrutinised as ex-amarr pilots.

Yeah, you were always the One True Believer in that kinda thing. 

I tried my best to keep that up too. 

Gottii was friendly-ish with Guristas because 1.) he saw them at eating at the underbelly of the State, an enemy of the People.

and 2.) IIRC Old PF stated the Guristas did everything but slavery. 

Now, its been retconned, and Im kinda meh about it.  Ill probably have Gottii keep taking fashion tips from Verone and allow it to be grandfathered in (and Gottii certainly has it in him to be a hypocrite just like everyone else).

[Gottii]

My point is that Slavery isn't something that analytically implies abuse

Thats just it.  I dont think you can rationally define slavery as anything other than abuse. 

Slavery is bad.  Its abusive. Always.  By definition.  There is no "good" slavery. Or even neutral.  Treating people like property and forcing them to do what you want is morally wrong.  Always.

Can we all agree on that?  I mean, as real life people.


(and no BDSM defense please, just...no)

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Honestly, I do think that one can define slavery as something other than abuse. It's been done in history.

Now, one could argue that someone doing this just didn't know what he was talking about or was talking about something else than slavery. But then one could also say that nowadays we redefined it in a way not compatible with earlier conceptions.

I think, though, that the question of whether slavery is good or bad merely hinges on the question whether it implies abuse by necessity or not. There are many other good reasons to say that slavery is bad.

Still, at times we should think on the fact that we know certain institutions nowadays that aren't so far away from how some of the definitions from antiquity defined the institution of slavery. That, I think, is really stuff for thought.

[Gottii]

Honestly, I do think that one can define slavery as something other than abuse. It's been done in history.

Can I see examples of this? 

Im not saying there havent been less egregious versions of slavery, but I think its all part of a spectrum with "humiliation, lack of self-determination and no social status, but at least youre not beaten every day and you might get to be free one day" on one end with "pure utter unadulterated heinous evil" on the other. 

 But Im going to ask for sources if you say there have ever been example of slavery that we would all rationally view as "yeah, thats actually kinda nice"

Im sorry Nic, but if youre going to say that there is moral and beneficial forms of real life slavery, I think our differences of opinion extend a bit beyond EVE RP on this.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'm not saying that I think that there's a 'nice version' of slavery or even a good one. I'm saying that there are definitions of slavery that don't imply that the slave in question is abused.

And that even if that is so and a definition of slavery can be given that doesn't imply abuse of the slave, that there are probably other reasons to object to slavery.

As for an example: http://www.cleverley.org/areopagus/docs/aristotle/aribk1_4_6.html

I recommend also considering the commentary.