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[Lyn Farel]

When NERA collapsed I wanted to see it continuing but got no real answer or any show of motivation from the people that were racing. I was ready to organize and host something similar, but met incredible difficulties to find support and Gyra disappeared of my screens... I thought it was maybe not the best time.

But I did not forget it and still find a shame that kind of racing came to an end. And I am still ready to set up something, and thinking a lot about it. This is not to say that I will organize it for sure, but I am quite motivated and I wanted to create a thread where people and I can throw happily ideas and concepts around the theme. I would like to keep the current format that was the NERA, but this will obviously not be the NERA anymore, it would be something at least a little new. I don't even have a nice title for it so... Suggestions are welcome too.

Do not hesitate to participate, ask questions, propose inventive things, throw tomatoes, whatever can prove constructive.

____________________________________________________________________________________
GENERAL OVERVIEW


So, let's start with ideas on the general rules of the thing :

- Mostly the same than in NERA, with mailing list, teams, etc.

- Teams will have a limit number of pilots to prevent discrepancies and/or unbalance between them. This limit may be removed if proved useless or harmful, but will remain at the beginning unless I get a good reason not to do so. The limit would probably be 2 max pilots per ship class in each team. Freelances are mostly welcome too. This limit would change if the next rule is applied, and would rather be of 4-5 pilots. I prefer small and numerous teams of people close to each other, but if people want big teams, well, who am I to tell them otherwise ?

- I strongly hesitate to totally change the format of ship classes and instead of running 3 races for each class at each event, running one race where everyone flies the same class of ship. Ex: race 1 is a frigate race, race 2 is an interceptor race, etc. Pros : makes people change ships, try new things, and someone that may be very good at one thing may not be as good at another thing, makes versatility a key feature, is easier to organize, keeps more people together on the track (same speeds, etc). Cons : I do not want to force people to fly what they do not want to fly, rookie pilots that do not have the skills for T2 frigates or not the skills for every ship class will be at a disadvantage (even if they already were outclassed by faction frigates with their little T1 frigs, in the NERA). But I think that having to fly a lot of different frigates can be a lot of fun for everyone and prove to be a key feature of that league so I'll stick to that for now and see if it really is a good idea. Note : racers not able to fly the required classes can run another class as long as that class is not faster.

- Cost of registering a team should remain the same (5M) and will go to the final rewards. Cost per pilot to field on a track would be 2M, 1M for the race rewards and 1M kept for the final rewards.

- Registration for a race remains the same : just before the race, with the ship used by the pilot. Can be done by team leaders or team members, whatever method they choose, I just need to have the name of everyone noted at the beginning. 

- No limit of pilots that can take part in the race remains the rule.

- Engaging each other outside the race timeline (just before the starting line or after the race) is prohibited. Podkilling is prohibited too. Shooting at another racer IN the race is still encouraged though.

- The spirit of the league would be primarily IC. It does not mean that everyone has to be IC or a RPer, but it means that alliances between teams or individuals, betrayals and the likes are not prohibited. Bringing mercenaries to kill adversaries or clean the track is also not prohibited (how to do otherwise anyway ? can't know who hired them, even OOCly).

- I am definitly not against partnerships with another organizer. It can definitly work like in Tennis, Football (Soccer) or the likes. A season with its own rankings and winners, a tournament here and there with its own rankings and winners, and a global ranking (with possible prizes, or just fame).


Racetrack rules :

- No idea yet on the number of races included in a season. Maybe the same format (10), maybe more, maybe less. Of course they would take place everywhere in the cluster at the exception of nullsec (but shorter routes may occasionally pass through null, who knows).
 
- Racer's performances might only take in account a certain percentage of the total number of races (their best races ofc), which would allow for people to occasionally miss one or two races without being too much penalized (buffer races). Ex : 12 races in the season but only your 10 best races are taken into account. Note : even in the case of some racers having performed so well in their 10 first races that they do not feel the need at all to race in the two last ones, they might reconsider it because it could allow some of their challengers to score easier high points without them in the race.

- No countdown before the race starts. Just a "get ready" and a "GO", or something in these lines. I do not want to see people starting early due to being nervous at the countdown going down : aka I don't want to see people starting their engines at "1", but "0" (or after for the slowest of you :p).

- Like the old NERA, the racetrack is constituted of audit log containers that act as waypoints. Each racer has to open the can with the password given by the organizer at the beginning of the race, and then lock / unlock something inside to appear on the logs.

- The race will not start docked in stations to reduce discrepancies of loading times at the undock. That way, everyone will be ready on grid on a starting line around a waypoint container (or container 0, where the location of the first waypoint is located). Everyone will have the time to read and get the first waypoint, and the pressure will come after at the next waypoints of course. And I find it way better for everyone to start together in space behind a virtual starting line rather in station. Note : if some racers are not safe in high sec space for some reason (outlaws, FW, etc), i will have to see how to fix that issue, like by starting in low sec instead... Which is not ideal. If it starts in lowsec, then an ECM burst will be released at the start to break any preemptive lock between racers.

- The same way, the last waypoint will not be a station where to dock but an audit log container like any waypoint. More accurate when people come at the finish line extremely close to each other. Again, shooting at someone when the race has not begun or after you finished the race is prohibited.

- I plan to redesign a little the "level design" of the racetracks. I want them to be closer to subwarp racing even if they still remain quite standard. Which means that you will probably see a lot more containers at a waypoint. Which also means that you will maybe have a lot of waypoints located in some systems (6 in that belt, 3 around that gate, 2 at that major plex, same system). Long series of jumps (not endless either...) will remain in the track too, to let the pressure off a little between each series of waypoints. I have some other ideas that I will keep secret for the surprise.

- Each waypoint can contain one or more containers to validate. One is always the container "ZERO" that is located at 0km at the warp in. This may not please everyone but it will make void the scouting of the track before the race, except if you want to hire mercenaries or something else. But it will not play on the race performance itself as I do not want to see people getting a huge advantage because they already got all the waypoints bookmarked. The only advantage they will gain will be to know where they are, but they will have to fly on the same distances than everybody else.

- Reintroducing the concept of branches on the race (split waypoints). Not too much to keep people flying together, but some might break the boring routine. It can also prove itself to be a semi effective way to fight against interferences from hostiles monitoring the event : they will have to split their forces or choose between several branches.

- Every waypoint has to be validated in order. Every container on the same grid can be validated in any order. Ex: waypoint 10 with containers A,B, C and D in asteroid belt X-1 can be validated in any order. But waypoints 11 (3 containers) and 12 (2 containers) have to be validated after waypoint 10, and W12 after W11.

- Waypoints still located exclusively in low sec.

- Camped or very hot waypoints can be declared optional by the organizer at any time. Accessing an optional container can grant bonus time (2 min like in the NERA for example).

- If a racer is destroyed at any waypoint, he is freed from the obligation to validate every of its containers inside.

- The next waypoint location is written in the name of the bookmark contents of each container. (like in the NERA bookmarks are dummies leading to random systems, only their name is important)



That's all I see for now. Rules on points, ships and fits coming soon. I hope it already gives a good overview of what I have in mind.

[Lyn Farel]

Points

- A ranking for pilots, and a separate ranking for teams.

- No other idea than the standard NERA ranking, except an adaptive rewarding system.

The standard NERA ranking :

1st 25 pts
2nd 20 pts  
3rd: 16 pts  
4th: 13 pts  
5th: 11 pts  
6th: 9 pts  
7th: 7 pts  
8th: 6 pts  
9th: 5 pts  
10th: 4 pts  
11th: 3 pts  
12th: 2 pts  
13+: 1 pt

Adaptive capped ranking :

>= n : 1 pt
n - 1 : 2 pts
n - 2 : 3 pts
n - 3 : 5 pts
n - 4 : 7 pts
n - 5 : 10 pts

Which means that the more racers are in the race, the less your chances to win the race are good, and therefore the most points you can score. Of course, there is a hard limit to avoid people gaining incredible amounts of points in a single race, especially if there is not many racers in the other races.

Ex : if 4 racers are registered for the race, then the loser is n : 1 pt, the guy ahead is n - 1 : 2 pts, the guy ahead is n - 2 : 3 pts, and the winner is n -3 : 5 pts.

Ex : if 10 racers are registered, then the 5 first racers gain respectively 10pts, 7pts, 5pts, 3pts, and 2pts. All the other pilots gain 1 pt.


Note : in both systems, even if you lose the race, you still score 1 pt. The only racers scoring 0 pts are racers that do not finish the race or do not show.

[Saikoyu]

Hmmm, interesting.  A few observations if I may.  Take or throw away as you wish. 

Keep it simple (KIS).  If it worked before it will probably still work.  You will also have less people wining about how it wasn't like this before.

I would really be hesitent about making all frigate and all interceptor races, for a few reasons.  First, if each race adds to the overall score and is not split by class, then people will feel forced to race in a class they either don't know or don't like in order to have a shot at winning.  Second, there are some poeple who can make a frigate outrace an interceptor, so saying a frigate is slower is not necessarily true.  Also, your points about teams and races seem to contradict each other.  How can any team have more than two members if every racer has to fly all ship classes?

Also, it seems like you are saying that any team can ally with any other team, thus leading to teams larger than two per class anyway, so what would be the point?

I'm not sure about this, but the audit can's also have lag in them when you open them.  I don't know if that lag is more or less than loading into space, but it is there.  Personally, I think the loading issue is going to be there no matter what you do, and adding starting and ending cans just clutters things up.  But I've never really messed around with can logs.

Starting in space also gives pilots a chance to allign to the most likely gate.  Not sure if that is good or bad. 

The warp to zero can idea, it seems like you want to put one can right at the zero  warp in point, and then others some distance away but on the same grid.  It also sounds like you want to have people not warp to the cans, but slow boat over to them.  First, I don't think this will stop people for scouting the track if they want to.  Easier to say don't bookmark the cans or don't scout the track and be done with it.  At a certain point, you have to trust the racers to obay the rules.  If you're too jaded by eve to do that, then this will never work.  No offence meant, but if its not this, it will be something else that you haven't thought of that will shift the balance.  After all, there are more minds working to win then you have working to make sure they do so completely fairly. 

Second, if you want them to do sub warp racing, make it part of the rules.  You must warp to zero and you must not warp to any of the cans.  Otherwise, it might be easier for a racer on some or all of the cans to fly the other way and warp to the can instead of slow boating.  If you have a cluster, a racer might warp to the first can, fly away from the next while waiting for that one to open.  When it does, he warps to the next can, and repeats.  And again, you have to trust the racers to do this, since there is very little you can do to enforce it.

Again, just my thoughts, take or leave as you wish.   

[Lyn Farel]

Thank you for the feedback !

Hmmm, interesting.  A few observations if I may.  Take or throw away as you wish. 

Keep it simple (KIS).  If it worked before it will probably still work.  You will also have less people wining about how it wasn't like this before.

Yes, this is always a good balance to find between innovative things that can potentially enhance the fun people can get out of the race and too much creative stuff that can ruin it or make people complain about how it was better before. I have that in mind, and this is also why I write here down everything I can and try to find out as many as pros and cons I can find. There is also a fine line between repeatitive stuff that never changes and stuff that changes too much beyond recognition. Well, I am not going to do a NERA copycat either (I already find that a LOT of rules are still more or less the same). I want to try something else. If it does not work, it can still be adjusted, or I can backpedal and get back to more conventional stuff.

I would really be hesitent about making all frigate and all interceptor races, for a few reasons.  First, if each race adds to the overall score and is not split by class, then people will feel forced to race in a class they either don't know or don't like in order to have a shot at winning.  Second, there are some poeple who can make a frigate outrace an interceptor, so saying a frigate is slower is not necessarily true.  Also, your points about teams and races seem to contradict each other.  How can any team have more than two members if every racer has to fly all ship classes?

This is why I too am hesitent. Too expand more on what it would consist of, you can for example have a first race about "heavy frigates", a class similar to what was the AF class in the NERA, but with a lot of slow T1 frigates added to it (like magnate, tormentor, that kind of thing that are not faster). People would have to pick their choice in the ships of that class. After that race you can have a race about "light frigates", more or less the same class than the frigate class of NERA (without the T1 frigates in the heavy frigate class). Then you can have a third race about the "interceptors" class. People wil therefore have to find not a single ship for the season, but basically 3 ships, one for each class. I find that "deck" like thing interesting. Some will maybe not, but I find it interesting that way, and also for the reasons I explained in my first post.

Also, I keep in mind that people (especially noobs) that do not have the capability to fly a lot of ship types will have issues for a lot of races that do not match the things they can fly. Well, to prevent that to be too much of a hassle I added on purpose a lot of slow T1 frigates in the heavy class as said above, that are definitly not faster than AFs. I also moved half of the faction frigates in the interceptor class because firstly, they were OP for the frigate class (daredevil especially, but even the slicer, the comet, or the dramiel). I do not think on paper a slicer and a comet can beat an interceptor (due to warp speed mostly) but they are in between and can prove to be an alternative for younger pilots (and are not that far to interceptors, same or better align times especially and very good speed). And if they do not have money, there is also the vigil, which is incredibly fast and agile, which made it almost OP for the frigate class too (so I moved it with the interceptors, believe me or not). So, in the end, I believe that even the youngest pilot can find what he likes in every category.

I do not understand your point on contradictions, though. I said, no more than 2 racers per team for a specific class in a standard NERA setup (which makes 6 racers max for a team), but that would be more like 4-5 racers max by team in my system where races are class restricted.

Also, it seems like you are saying that any team can ally with any other team, thus leading to teams larger than two per class anyway, so what would be the point?

Theorically, they can not really, but what keeps them away not to do so ? It was already the case in the NERA, even if I do not recall people doing it. I do not see what I could genuinely do to avoid team alliances. And anyway, why would they ally ? They would still compete for the points awarded at each race... The only case where I could see an alliance would be if a team is sure to lose, or sure to win the season.

I'm not sure about this, but the audit can's also have lag in them when you open them.  I don't know if that lag is more or less than loading into space, but it is there.  Personally, I think the loading issue is going to be there no matter what you do, and adding starting and ending cans just clutters things up.  But I've never really messed around with can logs.

Starting in space also gives pilots a chance to allign to the most likely gate.  Not sure if that is good or bad.

Lag at the can opening is irrelevant at the starting line in my system because everyone would be around it and would have opened it before starting the race. Lag at the can opening starts to becomes relevant at all the other waypoints, much like it was already in the NERA, and as you say, I will never remove lag discrepancies and connection personnal performances between people. But for loading the grid at undock (which is a lot heavier for people machines than simple lag), I can remove that, so why not ? Though we can continue starting in stations, thats not an issue either. I just found it funnier to do otherwise here, I have to admit.

Actually, being able to align and thus, "bet" on the most likely next gate at the beginning can add a strategic choice at the beginning. And if you are wrong, well, you lose time. And by the way, with everyone stopped, aligning is irrelevant too. Ships turn much faster than they warp, and both are unrelated to each other, so aligning to a stargate while your ship points to it, and aligning to a stargate while your ship points backwards, is basically the exact same thing with the exact same time required to align and warp (starting at 0 m/s of course).

The warp to zero can idea, it seems like you want to put one can right at the zero  warp in point, and then others some distance away but on the same grid.  It also sounds like you want to have people not warp to the cans, but slow boat over to them.  First, I don't think this will stop people for scouting the track if they want to.  Easier to say don't bookmark the cans or don't scout the track and be done with it.  At a certain point, you have to trust the racers to obay the rules.  If you're too jaded by eve to do that, then this will never work.  No offence meant, but if its not this, it will be something else that you haven't thought of that will shift the balance.  After all, there are more minds working to win then you have working to make sure they do so completely fairly. 

Difference of school of thought I guess. I understand your points I tend to see it differently.

My idea of a waypoint can at each warp in is not mine, it was already proposed when the drama occured in the NERA. The idea is just to use the same system than the NERA (with one or more cans at the same location), but with one can always being at 0 (warp in). As I said it does not prevent people to probe out the track (you can not prevent that, like hiring mercs, you just can't prevent it to happen if people are really motivated to do it). It will probably be forbidden in the rules, but rules even in racing can be broken or eluded sometimes.

But with that system, people can probe out the track to know where are the waypoints, they will also be able to bookmark each can, but what is the point ? What gave a huge advantage in the NERA was the fact that with bookmarks of each can, you were able to warp at the first can directly instead of slowboating to it. The only problem is that first can. People that do not have it in bookmarks because they did not probe the track out beforehand are just not able to warp to it, and have to slowboat to it everytime. For the next cans on the grid, its not an issue, you will have to slowboat to them all anyway; bookmarks or not.

And yes, I expect to see some flaws that can be exploited to rise in time, and they will have to be adressed in time, as usual. Again, I can not prevent this to happen, but I can adress them and/or fix them if possible.

Second, if you want them to do sub warp racing, make it part of the rules.  You must warp to zero and you must not warp to any of the cans.  Otherwise, it might be easier for a racer on some or all of the cans to fly the other way and warp to the can instead of slow boating.  If you have a cluster, a racer might warp to the first can, fly away from the next while waiting for that one to open.  When it does, he warps to the next can, and repeats.  And again, you have to trust the racers to do this, since there is very little you can do to enforce it.

It will be like in the NERA (except for the warpin can), all cans will not be in warp range of each other, and people will HAVE to slowboat to each of them after they emerge on the warp in. Oh, of course, if they have bookmarks of the other cans, they can warp out and warp back in, but I think it will take a lot more time to do so than just slowboating to each of them (especially with MWDs...).

[Saikoyu]

Okay, I think I see most of your other points, I think I was not reading it right, but when this gets formalized you might want to make sure that your rules are clear so there is as little confusion as possible. 

On the deck of ships idea, I can see that, but you will still get some push back from two sources.  One being people who are die hard this ship lovers, and the other being people who are poor in game.  Interceptors and frigates that can keep up with them are expensive.  I think it would be better if you do run races like this to keep the points from the different classes seperate.  That way, if someone doesn't want to or can't run in a particular class, they don't get slapped for it.  It might cost you some racers in each race, but I think they would be happier.

On align times, I am pretty sure that if you are facing the wrong way, your ship will take longer to warp than if you are facing the right way.  Even if you are stopped.  In frigates, it might not be that long, but it is there. 

And on the placement of cans, I think you really need to talk to some racers who have be doing this longer than you have, because, no offence meant, you seem lacking in experience.  Take this particular issue.  If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that if cans are placed within 150 km (minimum warp to range), no one will warp to them, and no rules are needed.  I will tell you right now, this isn't true all the time.  Even if I have to warp to zero for the first can, I, as a racer, willl always look at the location of other cans on the grid.  If any of them are over 70 km away, I will probably decide that it will be faster to burn away from the can until I can warp to it.  70 km and further, its usually faster to burn away and warp to the can than to burn right to it, with odds getting better the further away it is.  No bookmarks needed. 

[Lyn Farel]

I am still thinking a lot about that ship class issue. Pros and cons for both solutions, not sure yet what to decide.

On align times, I tested that several years ago with a battleship and got the same results for both cases. I just tried it again with a Vindicator (first thing I was in), and got the same results again (11 sec client side each time). I took a battleship to be sure that the agility of the ship I run the test with is worse than a frigate.

I must have been unclear on my explanation on the placement of cans. What I meant is not that some will not run backwards to warp to them if they are located at more than 70-80km from them. I meant that in the NERA case with no can at 0 (warp in), a pilot with no bookmarks of the cans will land at the distance he chooses, but will have to slowboat to the first can every time, unlike the guy that has the cans bookmarked : he will be able to instant warp on the first can. After that, it does not matter because all cans are on grid, so even if you have bookmarked the other cans, you will have to slowboat to them (or move backwards to warp back to them) like the guy that has no bookmarks. So, only the first can matters. This is why I want to put a can at 0km (warp in). If the people that have not scouted the racetrack can warp to the first can instantly, the advantages that people that have scouted it gain becomes more or less null in terms of distance to run (and thus, time). The only advantages they get out of that tactic is now to be able to know where is the racetrack, but that has no clear impact on the time they gain other than being less under pressure or anything like that.

[Lyn Farel]

[Whatever, was posted without detachement, deleted it]

[Lyn Farel]

I finally worked on the last bits of the rules of the league and finished it this evening. It may well contain mistakes and inaccuracies since it is the first version of it, so I would be glad if you have remarks or anything. Help would definitly be appreciated before I post it on the IGS. I hope some of the old racers will be interested.

Then I will probably run one or two beta races to make sure everything works fine before starting the real league.

Also, my apologies to Gyra in advance for taking a few bits of the NERA rules since both are similar in nature, bits that I found just perfect. I hope Gyra will not mind.


The link to the rules

[Khloe]

I don't mind at all. In fact, I am glad someone is taking the time to continue the sport and I wish you all the best in your endeavors. You can PM me if you have any questions or just want another opinion.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, I do not mind to read as many opinions as possible actually.

[Lyn Farel]

Here we go !

[Safai]

I am tuning up an alt
FOR SPACE RACING!

Looking forward to this and hoping I'm not the only one on board, as racing is something I've been interested in but NERA ceased before I got to it.

[Lyn Farel]

Well it would seem that for the moment I have barely one pilot that signed up and Silas that seemed interested for sponsorship (cheers). Still a few days left before the test race, and since its test races, maybe it is part of the problem : why so few people interested. Also, maybe I just have bad luck and the current context is that nobody wants to race anymore except one of two people.

Anyway, I have the feeling from experience that I am facing again my usual curse which is that I have decent management and organizationnal skills but am just a terrible commercial/advertiser/recruiter. So it might be starting to ruin again all of my efforts and it is getting frustrating. If any of you have advices or whatever...