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[Vincent Pryce]

UPDATE

So, I find myself at an impasse. I'm not sure what to think of my character, or how she has evolved. In a discussion with a friend, they pretty openly pointed out that Katrina is not the Caldari exemplar. She married a Gallentean female. This is, of course, to be expected - but how bad does it go? How far from the Caldari example is she?

Living in a luxurious house on her own career profits, married to a female Gallentean, and generally abhors the militia wars.

On the other hand, she is portrayed as constantly working in her office for I-RED/Ishukone, speaks often and loudly in defense of the State (or against Heth), has a combat record for I-RED and campaign experience there, and has generally tried to keep a public face worth being proud of... with a few exceptions.

So, while her private life is certainly quite comfortable and luxurious, she tries to balance it by being the best worker she can be and tries to remain humble. She rarely ventures outside her office, and tends to remain focused on her work if she isn't at home. She doesn't like flaunting her wealth or accomplishments (mostly because I don't like trying to convince others to acknowledge them).

In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
 
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?

Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?

Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?

From what I've interracted with her, she'd make a far better Gallente than caldari so I am gonna say 2 on your scale of caldari. I find the character interesting, and often fun to follow and read. Go independent, it'd make more sense and would open multiple different paths you'd other might not explore with her.

PS. Join Stormcrows. Like a Boss.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I'd say 6-8, depending on how heavily you weigh the marriage issue. From my little knowledge of Caldari PF, it isn't enjoying the benefits of success itself that is frowned upon - frankly, discouraging enjoying your success in a hypercapitalist society is a idiotic idea - but preservation of those benefits superseding all other efforts. The Caldari don't mind if you spend your hard-earned coin; they do mind if you game the system to keep that coin flowing into your pocket rather than working to benefit the greater State.

And there, I think, is where Katrina succeeds: She is a shockingly good businessperson. As you pointed out, she is often on the front lines of the debates and in space combat. I would also add that as one of the most recognizable people in I-RED, she has also done a terrific job of outreach and diplomacy, managing to undo the heaviest stereotypes about Caldari and become an easy, friendly point of access for those wishing to speak or work with a Caldari-associated operation.

So, yeah. I like the Kat. Even if I don't get to talk IC nearly as much as I should.

[Vic Van Meter]

This is one of those issues I've got with the EVE RP community.  Katrina is fine, and the problem with her might not be you.

I've bandied the term around and been asked to explain it, so I will.  U.A.D.  It means Use As Directed, and comes from the idea that any substance that can be remotely dangerous carries a warning that you should never use it in any way other than you have been directed to use it.  It's a very, very common theme in OOC relations with IC characters, and it's essentially the death knell of substantial RP.

The concept was explained to me as a forum roleplayer as playing an over-limited role as a character due to taking every bit of lore about a people at face value.  The problem with the "every orc is a violent sociopath" problem is that when you play an orc that way, and every orc is a violent sociopath, you aren't playing a character anymore.  You're playing an "orc."  The problem is that this in no way relates to any realistic version of culture.  The social bell curve absolutely proves that there is more variation within any given culture than there can ever be differences between them.  It's really the separation that makes a character into a character rather than a caricature.  They have to stand on their own, or they're no longer a character in the play.  They're part of the scenery.

The idea that the Amarr, Caldari, or anyone else will not have the upper crust of their society with any variation from the norm doesn't make any sense.  What Caldari example is she trying to meet?  There are probably a nigh-infinite "Caldari examples" out there, or at least as many examples as there are players.  We've also seen that might makes right, so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari.  Even if she stuck completely to the Caldari script, you could bet there would be Caldari who would find her abhorrent.  That's just the way life is.

The U.A.D. concept essentially bandies cultural tendencies into gospels and orders its people to be a certain way all of the time.  In essence, it tells you precisely who and what you are supposed to be.  I would absolutely, if I were you, be very suspicious of adhering too closely to that frame of mind.  Essentially, everything that makes Kat entertaining and notable as a character isn't how well you can follow directions.  The idea that every Caldari is going to, say, agree with faction warfare and ostracize Kat if she is against it, would be an absolutely baffling display of a police state, since even the North Koreans can't completely stamp out personality (and they've been trying for over five decades).  We've already established that the Caldari aren't anywhere near that effective or quite that authoritarian, and they've got a rather more massive population to handle.

I'd say that, if Kat is a successful story of Caldari business practices and she speaks out in support of the government, she's probably going to be liked just fine and held up as a model of Caldari superiority regardless of how well she fits a stereotype.  She might have extreme traditionalist detractors, but the Caldari government isn't going to point to a person who succeeded in their system and now lives the high life and tell people how horrible it would be to be her.  The Chinese government held Yao Ming up as a national hero regardless of how un-Communist his life was.  Conservative Americans are still listening to Rush Limbaugh despite admitting to his drug problems.  We've got plenty of examples of how this works.

I've always been extremely suspicious of the U.A.D. argument, having been warned of it a lot earlier, and I've seen what it does when it straps everyone to a wall.  There has to be some kind of limitation, but what empire we come from is supposed to be a base for the character sauce we're making.  Nobody wants to eat tomato paste alone simply because that's how it comes out of the can, definitely not if you want to make a good chili.  A previously mentioned problem of yours was that too much of you ends up in the character.  The way to correct that is definitely not to play the loreplay game.  You have to understand Kat as a different individual, not you as you would adhere to Caldari rules.  It helps reduce bleed when you have easy frames of reference to view situations from, and racial lore simply isn't a frame of reference, it's a list of suggestions.

I wouldn't say to go so far against the grain that you essentially make her un-Caldari, but you definitely don't want to go the other way and make her Caldari for Caldari's sake.  In every empire, no matter how authoritarian, there has to be a wide spectrum of views and opinions.  Even the Amarrian community, which is meant to be based heavily on a moralistic theocracy, has a fantastically wide range of characters on the IGS.  I wouldn't say Rodj Blake, Constantin Baracca, Nicoletta Mithra, or any other is really un-Amarrian, they're all different characters with a similar background element (the past and religion).  They're all extremely different characters, which is really what we're trying to do.  Separate ourselves from the background noise.

I hope that stream-of-consciousness rant helped somewhat.  You can always send me an EVEmail, since I don't have as much time here with my recurring responsibilities elsewhere and the EVEmail gets answered first and foremost.  But I'd say, if you've got something that sets you apart from other people in your empire, you're actually doing it right.  If your first resource for character behavior is cultural lore, you're only going to end up having the problem a lot of other people have.  You say something, it's echoed from your side, decried from the other, and that's the end of the conversation.  Play the character, not the faction, and don't be afraid to butt heads with your own side.  Every single thing you say will probably earn you a U.A.D. cry of treason for every single thing you do, no matter how minor, but that's just background noise.  Use your best judgment and, above all, have some fun with your character.  If roleplaying isn't fun anymore, it's probably because it's turning into a research project rather than an artistic expression.

[Shiori]

In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?

Strawberry/vanilla.

Being Caldari is not, in my opinion, about what percentage of bullet points you have in common with the Caldari stereotype. I find her filthy, unnatural fornications with jaiji are not so much strikes against Caldari-ness as interesting character flaws.
 

Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?

Yup.

Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?

No. Worse, I have a general dislike for the idea that all characters should be flag-waving stereotypical exemplars of the values of their empire. She is a better character for not fitting in perfectly with the ideal. Her internal and external reactions to the discrepancy, to the extent that I've seen them, are done well and add depth.

Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?

While I guess she could easily go in that direction if you wanted to go there, I don't think it's in any way necessary.

[Morwen Lagann]

I think Shiori mostly nailed it for my own view.

The comments about Katrina possibly being a better Gallente than a Caldari are in some ways accurate but only if you're operating on a purely stereotypical and oversimplified spectrum.

Kat's hilarious and you never know what'll happen next with her. She may be educating some ignorant fools on why bitches be preferring a meritocracy for their lives by using academic references and such all up innit. But the next thing you know, she be crackin' puns and making Sansha's deadpan so hard they can't UNdeadpan.

This is probably one of the few things about Katrina as a character that results in a :twitch: reaction for me. It's great for a character to be able to do this when it's appropriate or the situation calls for it, but when she switches from super-srs-bsns to completely irreverent in a matter of seconds it is often very jarring and incongruous - especially if she's showing both 'modes' in the same place. (Like, it's one thing to be being a wiseass with people in person and super srs bsns on the Summit at the same time, but switching suddenly from super srs to OH LOL U on the Summit or vice versa feels really weird.)

Because you're often very irreverent yourself, this sometimes makes me wonder if perhaps the reason Katrina-c is making these seemingly random and sudden switches is simply because you have some random wiseass comment to make and just can't resist making it - and you just spit it out IC because it's usually related to the subject at hand. Alternatively, you are really, really bad at telling OOC and the Summit apart, and keep posting stuff in the latter that you mean to put in the former.

[kalaratiri]

BUT WHO WAS HEAD?

[AOkazon]

Cultural stereotypes are useful in role-playing games... for newbies. They provide pre-defined templates they can slot themselves into, add a few quirks, and get started quickly without making too much of a fool for themselves.

But real humans are always defined partly in conflict with their culture. Culture in the real world isn't a set of rules, but a kind of... conversation about what the rules are even about. Having a particular type of honour isn't nearly as Caldari as worrying about whether you have that particular type of honour.

[Shiori]

Cultural stereotypes are useful in role-playing games... for newbies. They provide pre-defined templates they can slot themselves into, add a few quirks, and get started quickly without making too much of a fool for themselves.

Yes, no, kind of; I'm looking at Pieter and Diana Kim here, too, who as far as I can tell played a (nearly) stereotypical Caldari tube trooper or zealous Provist almost completely straight, and succeeded wonderfully well in showing the friction where those ideals and stereotypes meet a messy and chaotic reality.

But real humans are always defined partly in conflict with their culture. Culture in the real world isn't a set of rules, but a kind of... conversation about what the rules are even about. Having a particular type of honour isn't nearly as Caldari as worrying about whether you have that particular type of honour.

^This.

[Makoto Priano]

I'd say 6 or 7.

The important thing to me is appearances and the maintenance of them. Sure, Kat married a Gallente woman (huhwha, goes the Hyasyoda exec? Definite demerit-and-no-more-promotions from the culturally conservative corp; oh wait, she's Ishu!); sure, she lives in luxurious accommodations. But she doesn't flaunt either, she doesn't try to fly it in the face of others as a challenge to them.

Further, remember that she's in the Liberal cast; being Gallente isn't a sin. Being a warmongering Gallente nationalist is. But then, warmongering generally gets the eye.

So. It'd be interesting for Kat-in-character to maybe have a crisis of belief (Makoto briefly flirted with that when it came to the concept of adversity, but it didn't blossom), but I wouldn't worry over much on your playing of her. She comes off as a sliiightly eccentric but essentially dedicated and admirable Caldari Liberal.

After a point, the character unfolds organically, so I say keep running with it.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Before I continue, many thanks on the responses! All are very helpful. I had an inkling that I should be playing to realism in variation, but I wasn't sure about how well that works as Caldari.

Specific replies:

... And abhoring the militia wars isn't bad unless you do it for moral reasons rather than pragmatic business ones, if so then other Caldari will find you different but won't look down on you too much for it. ...
I hope this is helpful and I'm not wildly ill-informed about what kind of answers you want.

The reasons for abhoring the militia is mostly due to the fact that Ishukone loyalists have no need to contribute to the militia.

Ishukone owns nothing in Black Rise (note the lack of stations), and can conduct their business perfectly in Intaki under either occupation. There's no reason for an Ishukone loyalist to fight and die for other corporations. She answers the war cries of "Gallente are invading Caldari space!!!!" with "No, just your corporation's space. Not Ishukone's."

... so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari.  ...

She does not vote in Gallente space.

Despite her automatic citizenship by marrying Erys, she has redirected all political stuff from the Fed right to the junk mail bin. She absolutely refuses to 'take part' in the Federation outside her marriage. She tends to justify this with alternating excuses of paranoia or disgust, depending on whether she's fought with another State or Federation loyalist most recently.

<Silliness and mischats>

Yes, that is definitely OOC bleedover, and eventual exhaustion with playing the super serious angle. Because I'm not sure I could break that habit even if I tried, and at least a significant portion of the community doesn't mind it, I'm inclined to just let it continue.

I am however attempting to provide a more natural shift into joking moods, so it's not so jarring. I tend to do this either by slowly building into it, or by waiting in silence for a while before speaking up again with the jokes.

... huhwha, goes the Hyasyoda exec? Definite demerit-and-no-more-promotions from the culturally conservative corp; oh wait, she's Ishu!...

She was born and raised Hyasyoda, not Ishukone. She only turned Ishukone when she joined I-RED. As explained below, this has had unforseen consequences in how she as developed as a person.


Now, replying to all the posts here at once. I think I just tend to slam on the brakes when I hear (or think I hear) that she isn't very Caldari. My goal isn't to play the ultimate Caldari, and it never was.

My goal is actually to play a believable Caldari, one who could fit in with the State while still not being a monochrome corporate drone. I wanted people to say, "Oh so that's what the Caldari are really like..." On the outside, she would appear to be Caldari exemplar, but on the inside she turns out to have layers upon layers of secrets both good and bad.

Part of the fun in playing Kat is that she has plenty of skeletons in her closet. If the closet door is wide open and everyone can see them, it ruins the effect. The intent isn't to show everyone what her skeletons are. The intent is to show everyone what a struggling Caldari woman with issues looks like on the outside. The intent is to play a troubled Caldari character who is trying to balance her traditionalist Hyasyoda expectations with her selfish and guilty desires in an environment where there is almost no oversight and boundless personal freedom.

Being a capsuleer is a HUGE difference in the amount of control. Suddenly Big Brother isn't there anymore. Nobody is watching you. Your phones aren't tapped, your bank accounts can't be siezed, you're immune to prosecution, you don't even need the State anymore. Suddenly you've got all this money and power and freedom, and you're talking with dirty jaijii on a regular basis, learning things the State would normally censor. It would take something remarkable to not lose yourself in the culture shock and confusion. Only the most powerful indoctrination would keep you in check. It's like a North Korean suddenly moving to the United States in their early twenties - do you really think they would still act completely North Korean after a few years?

The struggle this eventually presents is - how subtle is it? How obvious is it? Did I go too far with portraying her slow transition into a more worldly attitude and lifestyle? Has she lost her roots, or is she still firmly planted in State tradition? This is the crux of my RP difficulties, is handling this transition as believably and effectively as possible without it being a jarring contradiction in presentations.

[Kunarian]

The reasons for abhoring the militia is mostly due to the fact that Ishukone loyalists have no need to contribute to the militia.

Ishukone owns nothing in Black Rise (note the lack of stations), and can conduct their business perfectly in Intaki under either occupation. There's no reason for an Ishukone loyalist to fight and die for other corporations. She answers the war cries of "Gallente are invading Caldari space!!!!" with "No, just your corporation's space. Not Ishukone's."

Ahhh, I see now, that makes perfect sense and really any Caldari of a business mind rather than a state/nationalistic mind will see your logic and agree that Ishukone doesn't need to be involved. Although I'd keep Kat away from Kaalakoita employees, they're all doped up on "the state" and "Gallente vs Caldari" and that was before Heth and after him... dear me, speak softly and carry a big stick.

My goal is actually to play a believable Caldari, one who could fit in with the State while still not being a monochrome corporate drone. I wanted people to say, "Oh so that's what the Caldari are really like..." On the outside, she would appear to be Caldari exemplar, but on the inside she turns out to have layers upon layers of secrets both good and bad.

This is the awesome we should all aspire to, in fact it's kind of how I'm trying to build my new Caldari character, to be honest the points you raise are of great inspiration in the process and I think the character you've built is one of the most believable Caldari I've ever seen. Good luck in further developing her to be even more believable and 3D and real.

[Vic Van Meter]

... so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari.  ...

She does not vote in Gallente space.

Despite her automatic citizenship by marrying Erys, she has redirected all political stuff from the Fed right to the junk mail bin. She absolutely refuses to 'take part' in the Federation outside her marriage. She tends to justify this with alternating excuses of paranoia or disgust, depending on whether she's fought with another State or Federation loyalist most recently.

I'm aware of that, I was using it as a rhetorical flourish to say she could be a lot LESS Caldari and she'd still be held up as a model if she was successful.  Hence the Yao Ming/China reference a bit later.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Ahh, fair enough. I was just clarifying too.

[Vic Van Meter]

Ahh, fair enough. I was just clarifying too.

No problem.  Just sort of think people go a bit far making their characters seem like paragons by making characters sort of fit the mold.  It's sort of the way people in my country will, every now and then, point out a person living the 'Murkin way doing 'Murkin things.  And then they're gone.  The people we seem to remember aren't remembered for adhering to the script, they are people who kind of fit but are remarkable in some way.  Carl Sagan for his brilliant way of explaining complex metaphysical concepts.  Marilyn Manson for couching his gifted lyricism in an old Alice Cooper impersonation.  Kim Kardashian for... something.

But when we see politicians doing things that are that patently nationalistic and paragonal, we immediately understand it to be an act.  Like George W. Bush owning a ranch in Texas.  He's not even from Texas, he's from New Haven, Connecticut and went to a boarding school in Massachusetts, and he definitely wasn't a rancher, he has a BA in history from Yale and a Masters in business from Harvard.  We all know the rancher act was a ploy to make him seem folksy and down-home so that he could say, "Look at me, I'm 'Murkin."

Americans know better; people who are trying that hard are acting.  Nobody adheres to that many bad stereotypes.  So it seems funny that that's kind of how EVE empires are often played out.  You'd think that seeing people being absolutely Caldari would make people suspicious or incredulous, not awestruck.

[Ollie]

UPDATE

So, I find myself at an impasse. I'm not sure what to think of my character, or how she has evolved. In a discussion with a friend, they pretty openly pointed out that Katrina is not the Caldari exemplar. She married a Gallentean female. This is, of course, to be expected - but how bad does it go? How far from the Caldari example is she?

Living in a luxurious house on her own career profits, married to a female Gallentean, and generally abhors the militia wars.

On the other hand, she is portrayed as constantly working in her office for I-RED/Ishukone, speaks often and loudly in defense of the State (or against Heth), has a combat record for I-RED and campaign experience there, and has generally tried to keep a public face worth being proud of... with a few exceptions.

So, while her private life is certainly quite comfortable and luxurious, she tries to balance it by being the best worker she can be and tries to remain humble. She rarely ventures outside her office, and tends to remain focused on her work if she isn't at home. She doesn't like flaunting her wealth or accomplishments (mostly because I don't like trying to convince others to acknowledge them).

In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
 
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?

Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?

Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?

I haven't RP'd with Kat enough to make a scaled judgement call

But, given the other information you volunteered at the start of this post ... have you considered that it's not about Kat as good Caldari vs. Kat as bad Caldari. What it might be is Kat (human) vs. Kat (capsuleer)? (Re-read the post - clearly you have)

I mean, how often do you have to die (and have your crew perish) for I-RED to prove your loyalty and duty to them? When does the rallying cry of 'For I-RED! For Ishukone! For the State!' start to lose its potency? Is it measured in ISK earnt? Lives given? Battles won or lost? Sacrifices made - physical, emotional or otherwise?

At what point does it become clear that - under the right set of controlled conditions - Kat may well outlive I-RED, Ishukone and the State itself? And what then?

I don't think this answers any questions for you except to say that what you're trying to sound out as 'am I doinitwrong?' might actually be Kat's character developing in a less structured way than what might have been planned out for her from the beginning?