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[Aldrith Shutaq]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Gotti.

[Nmaro Makari]

Frankly, I dont get the drama of "omg i cant attend such-and-such festival".

Two points, RP should be about portraying a character with coherent motivations, values, passions, and concerns.  "RP" is not, in fact, always just chatting in a chat channel at the latest social gathering.  Sometimes, not showing up at an event is much more "RPing" than attending.  Its playing a role, and sometimes playing that role consistently and realistically means that things will happen with you not being there.

But then people say, "but, wait, I want to go to the parties!"  Thats great.  Make an alt.  If you want "party RP", but feel "left out", then make an alt that isnt burdened by the kinds of loyalties and principles that keep him or her locked out of such-and-suchs really cool party. 

What people seem to want to do is have their cake and eat it too.  They want to declare loyalties and allegiances, then get upset when people actually react to them like their hold those views and associations.  They want to create a character with a living history in EVE, but then get upset when people hold them accountable for that history.  They want to claim to be loyal to a set of beliefs or a people, but then break bread with the people who are attacking those people for the sake of "well, without it, I get no RP"  No, you just might not get much RP with that character.  They, the player, actually can can RP, they just want it on a very specific character, which is often an unrealistic request.

I will enshrine this upon my wall under the title "Gotti's Law"

[Lyn Farel]

My apologies for the drama, I am just having such a hard time to find suitable RP that it makes me bitter to a point that I am starting to feel the same thing that Kat feels where I am slowly being driven in a corner by my RP and I have no way out without sacrifying all the coherence that I have built behind my character over the years.

Welcome to Eve RP, Lyn. If you don't play as someone without any decent principles, you will find yourself all alone.

Maybe. Though I have never had to face that kind of thing until recently, so I doubt it is the real reason. Even if it was not really volontary here I tried recently to be more abrasive and encouraging conflict (under the IC belief that she actually does the contrary). This was mostly in response to another thread here (Aria's thread) that encouraged people to fight more and cuddle less, basically. This is tied again to all that GSF thingy "we are all friends and think the same like perfect western people" sugarcoating everything these days. The only interesting thing I got out of this is ICly as much as OOCly when I noticed that a lot of people actually do not care at all about the content of a message. They care about the form and the player(OOC) and/or the character(IC) that is posting it.

Mizhara,

I play a man with upstanding principles and he's far from all alone.

Yes and considering that Malcolm acts very similarly to Lyn on the IGS, be prepared that you might be seen as a white knight lecturing everyone. Personally I do not mind at all, this is a part I more or less wanted for the character, though.

Lyn,

You're right, most of the debate belongs IC, where it originally started. Carry out your debate there, not here. The fact is that a lot of characters that are involved in this event don't like Lyn (Malcolm included) but the players do not necessarily have an issue with you as a player or your character. For example, I don't have an OOC issue with you at all, but Malcolm has very little patience for Lyn lately.

I'm sorry you're frustrated and feel like you're being excluded, but the exclusion is IC and the debate should be IC.

You missed my point. It is only logical that Lyn have been excluded from that event and it would have been just stupid that after she set Defiant KOS and told it publicly to accept her in there. What I found totally wtf was to read that people actually part of the 24th IC were considered to be invited. I may have been wrong and so I will apologize for it, but I took that OOCly as a great hypocrisy. I perfectly know that all of you have no OOC issue with me, and I am the first one to always apply the rule Indra stated above. This is also why I really hate to talk about IC things OOCly and try to avoid this at all costs... But here, no, I just had to speak my mind on the matter. I am just sick of that GSF thing that plagues everything in the RP milieu and this is why I took that as some kind of offense OOCly.

And yes, I would take it gladly ICly if only Lyn was aware that other enemies were considered to be invited, but she doesnt know.

Frankly, I dont get the drama of "omg i cant attend such-and-such festival".

That was not my point, even if I am starting to understand why some people will try to twist everything to be part of all the parties to be able to do 1 or 2 hours of RP in the month.

Two points, RP should be about portraying a character with coherent motivations, values, passions, and concerns.  "RP" is not, in fact, always just chatting in a chat channel at the latest social gathering.  Sometimes, not showing up at an event is much more "RPing" than attending.  Its playing a role, and sometimes playing that role consistently and realistically means that things will happen with you not being there.

Definitly, and I choosed not to attend to Silas party exactly for that reason.

But then people say, "but, wait, I want to go to the parties!"  Thats great.  Make an alt.  If you want "party RP", but feel "left out", then make an alt that isnt burdened by the kinds of loyalties and principles that keep him or her locked out of such-and-suchs really cool party. 

I do not enjoy RP disposable alts. They are flat and uninteresting most of the time. If they were interesting, they would be a second main for me.

What people seem to want to do is have their cake and eat it too.  They want to declare loyalties and allegiances, then get upset when people actually react to them like their hold those views and associations.  They want to create a character with a living history in EVE, but then get upset when people hold them accountable for that history.  They want to claim to be loyal to a set of beliefs or a people, but then break bread with the people who are attacking those people for the sake of "well, without it, I get no RP"  No, you just might not get much RP with that character. 

Couldnt have said it better. This is a part of what I am complaining about.

[Ava Starfire]

I  completely understand the frustration, Lyn, and Im sorry. OOCly I like you and Lyn both very much. ICly... Ava and Lyn's friendship is "strained" just now at best.

Im currently taking crap from alliance mates for saying I dont want to commit genocide ICly, who have decided to resort to "well then Im going to take my RP ball and go home!" on the forums. Its frustrating as hell. I created this event so that ALL feasible people could have a fun, non head-in-a-box RPers could have something to do, and it seems in doing so, I have more Non-Minmatar RPers wanting to come than Minny ones, because "Im doing it wrong".

Finding ANYONE to RP with has become very frustrating beyond the Summit for me, so I totally understand. I want people to have fun more than I worry about staying "strictly IC". When people stop having fun, it means we need to back up and as a community figure out what the issues are with RP, and how can we work past them.

IC/OOC is sacred. Having no one at all to RP with because of that divide is frustrating and lonely. There IS a middle ground. I think we, as a community, need to discuss "Ok, how can we try to meet it".

Written as Amanda, not as Ava

[kalaratiri]

It is only logical that Lyn have been excluded from that event and it would have been just stupid that after she set Defiant KOS and told it publicly to accept her in there. What I found totally wtf was to read that people actually part of the 24th IC were considered to be invited. I may have been wrong and so I will apologize for it, but I took that OOCly as a great hypocrisy.

I do not think we invited any members of the 24IC?

Note; Enemies of Skadi's Call or the Minmatar people are not welcome. We will not ask you to leave the premises; odds are far greater you will wind up staying permanently.

That seems pretty clear to me.

[Malcolm Khross]

The problem you're facing Amanda is that blurring the IC/OOC lines, even for seemingly good reasons, is what leads to hurt feelings, OOC tension and so on because there's no longer that distinctive barrier there. The simple truth is that if you play a character who takes a stand on something, expect to have that stand challenged, expect to get distanced by people who oppose it and expect to hear a bunch of "urdoinitwrong" from people who don't understand that RP isn't about being a textbook copy of a background but about having a vibrant, believable character.

Both of my characters have taken very strong stances about things and been excluded, argued with, attacked, mocked and ridiculed ICly and I've dealt with OOC crap as well. The important thing about the IC/OOC divide is knowing that even if your character despises another character IC, the players can still hang out and have a good time. For example, Malcolm cannot stand Silas Vitalia IC at all, but I personally find the player to be creative, fun and enjoyable to interact with here on Backstage. Malcolm avoided Silas' party because it wouldn't make RP sense for him to be there, but he gets involved in the talks, debates and other things surrounding it.

It's a frustrating situation to have nobody to play with, I know it is. The honest truth is that if your current character is isolated and you simply aren't enjoying it, then it's time to consider a radical, viewpoint changing event to get them to shift (like Tiberious did) or a new character that you can enjoy more and will fit in with the people you're looking to have fun with.

[Ava Starfire]

The problem you're facing Amanda is that blurring the IC/OOC lines, even for seemingly good reasons, is what leads to hurt feelings, OOC tension and so on because there's no longer that distinctive barrier there. The simple truth is that if you play a character who takes a stand on something, expect to have that stand challenged, expect to get distanced by people who oppose it and expect to hear a bunch of "urdoinitwrong" from people who don't understand that RP isn't about being a textbook copy of a background but about having a vibrant, believable character.

Both of my characters have taken very strong stances about things and been excluded, argued with, attacked, mocked and ridiculed ICly and I've dealt with OOC crap as well. The important thing about the IC/OOC divide is knowing that even if your character despises another character IC, the players can still hang out and have a good time. For example, Malcolm cannot stand Silas Vitalia IC at all, but I personally find the player to be creative, fun and enjoyable to interact with here on Backstage. Malcolm avoided Silas' party because it wouldn't make RP sense for him to be there, but he gets involved in the talks, debates and other things surrounding it.

It's a frustrating situation to have nobody to play with, I know it is. The honest truth is that if your current character is isolated and you simply aren't enjoying it, then it's time to consider a radical, viewpoint changing event to get them to shift (like Tiberious did) or a new character that you can enjoy more and will fit in with the people you're looking to have fun with.

And you have people breaking the door down, including other Caldari players, to join your corp. I get dogpiled on by my own alliance mates.

[Casiella]

For the record, Casiella's snark is entirely IC. I love everybody, and Ava-p in particular. The only reason Ghost Outrider won't be there Saturday is purely because I'm taking my family to a resort this weekend and logging in Saturday from a laptop or something would get me in huge and well-deserved trouble.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Ava, that generally means that Ava and her alliance mates are not good fits.  There are lots of people who would be happy to have Ava around, though, believe me on that.

Other than that, Malcomb is spot on.  I am 100% behind the idea that OOC fun needs to come first.  We aren't crafting art, here, we are trying to play a game and adding an extra dimension onto it (The Dimension of RP).  If you arent having fun, figure out what you would be having fun doing, and then arrange IC events to coincide with that decision.  It's what I did with Tib and I have had very few regrets.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

I used to have the problem of trying to please everyone too. I could pull it off most of the time, and people liked Aldy for it. Found it bit me in the ass OOC though. Not going to play that way anymore.

If you try to please everyone, more people will like you but fewer people will respect you. If you stick to your guns fewer people will like you but more people will respect you. The ratio of the tradeoff is up to you to decide.

[Gottii]

Ava, haters going to hate.  Let them.   Youve got an interesting character.  Im pretty sure youre a better pilot than they are. 

You can live life perfectly, and people will still throw stuff out of you because youre doing it perfectly, and drawing attention from them.

I wouldnt stress about it. 

[Lyn Farel]

I didnt want to ruin that announcement thread and yet I did it anyway. I am doing everything wrong these days.

[BloodBird]

I didnt want to ruin that announcement thread and yet I did it anyway. I am doing everything wrong these days.

Bullshit. I'm enjoying the read that resulted from your 'doinitrong' and you did point out an important thing.

I happen to agree mostly with the viewpoints in the tread, regarding IC consistency, IC/OOC divide and such.

The only annoying part was the bit Gotti shared about 'having one's cake and eating it too' - not because I disagree - I happen to agree fully. But because it felt somewhat generalizing and broad, as in 'your all trying to have your principles and ideas and being loved by all regardless' and my toons definitly don't subscribe to that, so it felt like a personal slap. A fleeting, annoying feeling, but irrelevant as that was not Gotti's intention anyhow.

As for the party, I expect it will be great fun, for the participants, invited or no. As for me, I won't be there - barely play on any of my toons and none of them are of the mindsett to go to a party like this. You are better off without them

[Rhiannon]

[Haters gonna hate]

[Ava Starfire]

I didnt want to ruin that announcement thread and yet I did it anyway. I am doing everything wrong these days.

Nothing of the sort. You mentioned some important stuff, I think. People are talking OOCly about RP. Good!