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[Ulphus]

And at the end of it I thought
* The Caldari now have HitlerHeth, and a society completely scared of his brownshirtsProvists. If I had a Caldari character, I'd have been liquidising assets and moving somewhere else.
* The Amarrians have a popular leader who single-handed stomped the Matari Elder fleet, and who many leaders are very uncomfortable with, but they're making political decisions based on realpolitik about whether there'll be a rebellion if they reject Jamyl. For the run of the mill Amarrian, I don't know how big an impact there is. Public information makes her seem pretty good, doesn't it?
* The Matari Elders sent death squads into the republic by the hauler load to execute people left and right, leaving datachips on the corpses with evidence as to their claimed crimes. Then the Elder fleet got their arse kicked by Jamyl, and retreated somewhere in the republic, and withdrew from politics, leaving behind Shakor, their puppetrepresentative.
* I'm still a bit confused about the Gallente, but it felt like Heth and Wassname were in a MAD situation, and the Gallente blinked, and backed down leaving Heth with most of the power.


From my Matari perspective, I can't help thinking that there should be significant ramifications of the Elders. At the least, the death squads might cause some disquiet and the odd letter to the editor, (unless lots of people are thinking "Maybe I shouldn't rock the boat, or it might happen to me too"). The Elders have disappeared somewhere. The general population probably has no idea where. They might be wondering if they'll come back? If Shakor is following their instructions? Why they aren't getting involved more in the war? How badly were they hurt, whose side are they really on?

I feel like this should have big impacts on Matari society, but I'm not sure what they should be. We have no hints from CCP. Does anyone have any good ideas? Is there any post-TEA PF that I've missed that talks about this?

[Gottii]

What the hell is an "Elder" anyway?  They ever determine that? 

Militant version of the AARP?  My grandmother with hitsquads?  What? Ultra-conservative faction claiming to follow the "old" ways, and thus Elders? 

[Ulphus]

What the hell is an "Elder" anyway?  They ever determine that? 

I'm not entirely sure. At least some of them were Starkmanir I think, and I get the impression they were the subject of legends and fairy tales, although nobody had heard of them prior to them showing up with three titans and dozens of dreadnoughts

They had more and better spies/hackers than the rest of the republic combined, since they knew where to find all the collaborators/people on the Amarrian payroll, and could light cynos in Yulai, as well as explode the CONCORD office.

(I could sort of see the Caldari getting a Titan to Gallente space once CONCORD was disabled, since I think their cyno jammers are what keep capitals out of highsec, but it was "fridge logic" about how the Elders could jump into Yulai in the first place)

[Publius Valerius]

About the Elders I had the same impression that they are subject of legends and fairy tales, some fantasy creatures (all mystical stuff).

About the attack on Yulai/Concord, I never understand why, they elders show up.... and go... without doing something than say "Look at us and our fleet." It would be a moment, where on CONCORD all alarmsignals have been on.... Its like Osama would a week before 9/11 make a drive-by/fly-by with four jets... around the twin towers... and the US goverment wouldnt act...

About Jamyl... I never knew; why I should care about the fight in Sarum?.... she couldnt get kill anyway, because she has/is a clone... so there is no real danger.... So you know already, okay she will be a new big player in the end.

As for the Elders had already use their deathly Anti-Vitoc stuff... Jamyl just comes in and to kills/revange the action.... with a some super-weapon etc... (longer I think about it, the actionscenes are more meh, than the shit I have work on currently).

More or less... a meh game book.

P.S. Dont use the word realpolitik for the book or any characters out the book.... or I will come and write here in this topic a annoying long statment  ; why does characters arent rational, logical, cunningly... or realpolitk... nothing like this.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Having read all relevant fiction, I can't really be certain on the nature of the Elders either. Sometimes they seem to be regarded as spiritual beings, sometimes they are treated as some sort of Minmatar "shadow government" formed of a handful of members which works at the highest levels of the Seven Tribes, beyond even the tribal leaders (either modern elected ones, or, apparently, ancient truly tribal leaders) and commands the utmost respect from all Minmatar.

Sometimes I have this feeling that TonyG was trying to create a Minmatar counterpart to the Amarrian Holders there - have these two bitter enemies be more alike than they realise, etc etc - but I can't be sure, partially because of the contradictions in how the Elders are described in fiction.

Two interesting tidbits, though:

- There is an NPC in the database called "The Elder" - it's a Rupture-hulled mission NPC - but I've yet to encounter the mission it is involved in, so I can't give more information.

- There is a solar system in the Great Wildlands with a quote in its info panel, from a Thukker Tribal leader, along the lines of "The Amarr killed our Elder. You have no idea what this did to our [i.e., the Thukker] tribal structure." This would seem to suggest there are very few Elders per tribe. In Theodicy, though, the Amarr go and massacre a bunch of Elders, including children (if I remember correctly).

So, welp. As I said, not sure what to make of them.

[orange]

And at the end of it I thought
* The Caldari now have HitlerHeth, and a society completely scared of his brownshirtsProvists. If I had a Caldari character, I'd have been liquidising assets and moving somewhere else.

For the most part, pre-TEA Caldari RPers did just that.

[Julianus Soter]

Having read all relevant fiction, I can't really be certain on the nature of the Elders either. Sometimes they seem to be regarded as spiritual beings, sometimes they are treated as some sort of Minmatar "shadow government" formed of a handful of members which works at the highest levels of the Seven Tribes, beyond even the tribal leaders (either modern elected ones, or, apparently, ancient truly tribal leaders) and commands the utmost respect from all Minmatar.

Sometimes I have this feeling that TonyG was trying to create a Minmatar counterpart to the Amarrian Holders there - have these two bitter enemies be more alike than they realise, etc etc - but I can't be sure, partially because of the contradictions in how the Elders are described in fiction.

Two interesting tidbits, though:

- There is an NPC in the database called "The Elder" - it's a Rupture-hulled mission NPC - but I've yet to encounter the mission it is involved in, so I can't give more information.

- There is a solar system in the Great Wildlands with a quote in its info panel, from a Thukker Tribal leader, along the lines of "The Amarr killed our Elder. You have no idea what this did to our [i.e., the Thukker] tribal structure." This would seem to suggest there are very few Elders per tribe. In Theodicy, though, the Amarr go and massacre a bunch of Elders, including children (if I remember correctly).

So, welp. As I said, not sure what to make of them.

The Elder rupture cruiser is used in the Gallente Epic Arc btw. It's the leader of a splinter colony of Minmatar vagrants in Federation space.

From that we can conclude that the lesser elders are simply leaders of their respective tribes in an oligarchical society. Greater Elders are probably the original leaders of the Matari Nation, possibly putting themselves into deep sleep or continuously cloning themselves through the generations to stay alive.

[Graelyn]

I'm liking these bit of analysis.

[Loriarti]

Some good thoughts in here, looking forward to seeing more

[Ulphus]

Sometimes they seem to be regarded as spiritual beings, sometimes they are treated as some sort of Minmatar "shadow government" formed of a handful of members which works at the highest levels of the Seven Tribes, beyond even the tribal leaders (either modern elected ones, or, apparently, ancient truly tribal leaders) and commands the utmost respect from all Minmatar.

It would have been nice to know they existed before discovering that they command the utmost respect from all Minmatar, and that does seem a little internally inconsistent somehow...

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

If memory serves correctly one of the Templar One summaries has the Elders as a Jove sub-faction plot of some kind.

This would fit with Shakor's existing backstory and pre-wormhole Sleeper relics being from Minmatar space. It would even fit with Istvaan's notions about the real purpose of the Voluval. Bloody awful plotting though.

They are definitely a Tony G creation though. As I recall their first mention is in the novella Theodicy.

[Myyona]

Supposedly, the Minmatar Elders are regarded as heroes and spiritual guides for their people. Myyona hate their guts.

There used to be a Jovian bloodline called ‘Elder’. For some reason people mix this up with the Minmatar Elders, though the two entities are not the same (likewise sleeper agent and Sleeper agent are not the same).

[Jev North]

A while ago, I set out to read all three EVE novels in order. I failed about midway through TEA. There's just not a single interesting character, development or plot line in the bunch. TBL at times read like an infodump on the EVE universe, but at least it had protagonists. Empyrean Age.. the Retford crew sort of qualifies, I suppose, except they failed to come alive for me. All the rest is a shitload of metaplot, half-assedly spiced up with gratuitous sex.

I'm not even planning to start on Templar One. I'm beginning to understand one more reason EVE RP is dead, too.

[Valadeus]

To be fair, EVE-RP is dead because we're letting it die. As the RP community, we can make RP happen in spite of the PF, especially since we're collectively determining what is and what isn't considered "true to RP" on a daily basis.

I haven't read much of the books because I've heard pretty much nothing but negative things about them. I will state, however, that I've been under suspicion for quite some time that every current faction leader (except perhaps Roden) is a Jovian agent, they all had some "mysterious" event surrounding their rise to power.

[Publius Valerius]

A while ago, I set out to read all three EVE novels in order. I failed about midway through TEA. There's just not a single interesting character, development or plot line in the bunch. TBL at times read like an infodump on the EVE universe, but at least it had protagonists. Empyrean Age.. the Retford crew sort of qualifies, I suppose, except they failed to come alive for me. All the rest is a shitload of metaplot, half-assedly spiced up with gratuitous sex.

I'm not even planning to start on Templar One. I'm beginning to understand one more reason EVE RP is dead, too.

TBL... Info dump, sounds a little hardh. But also it is what the book is. The only goals of this book, was:

• A overview of the width of EVE and the factions, thats why we have drem in the smaller ones and the couple in the four empires.
• About the "bringing the EVE Storyline forward". This book hadnt the goal to do this. There was no expantion, patch or news about a event of the book, for the book or out the book. And I think, that is actially good, because I can think that it was a criterion from CCP and Abraxes has work very well in his boundaries.
• The second act somewhat stotert over the length of the book. I can understand why this happend; he had to explain every little thing. So it gets a little try (for people which have already those infos)
• A huge plus is, that I love his clear structur. I think if you are really good, you can start and play around with the boundaries, style, structur of wirting. But you should never forget the basic meat, three Acts, two storyplots, a hig point on the end of act II and a during point for the characters. I think Abraxes had show a good solid book (and I think when you can execute those basic, than you start the kür/freestyling. Like back-flashes etc... multi-plots, with jumping storyline strings etc...)
  

So overall a go starting point for people, which havent any infos about EVE lore. I recommend for people which just have started with the EVE lore. But it isnt a book which gives us any new infos, and thats whats upsets some people.


TEA was a very bad constructed and delivered story

• I doesnt like the structer, the speed/tempo of the plot. But It can be just me.
• Characters are heavy-handed, and some femal character (Mila, Jamyl) are just to one dimensional (in a book of one dimensional characters, they top/highlight this problem).
• For my taste, I repeat: For my personal taste. The story was weak and bad delivered. The structur was also not helpful.... I see multi-plots, with jumping storyline strings as the kür/(something what you can do when you [1] have the skill as a writer and [2] it helps to spies up your overall plot. He mix up a "die pflicht und die kür"/the obligatory and the freestyle.  Example: I can do all my house work and cooking etc..., so a future wife just needs to can splits/being flexable; thats what I call obligatory all other stuff is nice to have but not mandatory.
• I could add more, but I leave it by that.

T1 in Tony G got clearly better, but still it has his problems.

• I can just give a tip for the future and the kür. Like I already said: I see multi-plots, with jumping storyline strings as the kür/(something what you can do when you [1] have the skill as a writer and [2] it helps to spies up your overall plot). To have backfalashes in a stroy is nice, when they help the overall plot (like in the TV series Lost, was it a tool to split the plot and helped the overall storyplot to get it forward). In his book, I could take out most of the backflashes and it wouldnt destroy the overall plot of understanding things (I wrote "most", but If I change some little things, I could easly say: "all").
• I could add way more, but I leave it by that.

Edit: I qoute form the last episode of The Simpsons Moe: "And that's that. Another story in the classic infallible three-act structure. Good enough for Aristotle, good enough for The Simpsons."