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[Gottii]

<sets Elders red>

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Really, I think I'm with Roj on this one.

Consider these books to be IC works of fiction that just happen to have some real events and people as part of their background.

[Ava Starfire]

I am pretty irritated that CCP never gave us a follow-up to who or what these "Elders" are, nor what sort of fallout happened after their/Shakor's coup, nor the "purging" of corrupt people in the Republic. What elders? What does that word even mean to the Minmatar? Are they ancient tribal leaders kept alive by cloning etc since before/during the Amarrian invasion? Are they Thukker schemers? What are they?

I havent read Templar One, and really, I dont plan to.

ICly, Ava distrusts these "elders". I wish I knew more, so I could have a stronger say on them ICly, but... meh. CCP.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Of course if the "Elders" don't care about the Republic it would explain why they haven't bothered to take a more active role in things.

The second book was a fair to middling travelogue. But the capsuleer they met at the end really was an idiot. That said having the protagonists casually murdered by the pilot's security wouldn't have made for a very satisfying ending either.

[Lyn Farel]

What are they?

Enheduanni.

[Hamish Grayson]

What are they?

Enheduanni.

godzundheit

[Morwen Lagann]

What are they?

CCP.

Fixed for you. >.>

[Louella Dougans]

the Elders are:
"the mythological incarnation of the seven Minmatar tribes"
"selected men and women from every generation, each charged with the responsibility of absorbing the accumulated knowledge of  the ages, and using it to guide their journey to the future"
"although human, they were treated with the reverence of gods, and hidden from public view to keep their identities secret"

not sure if it's mentioned how this knowledge is absorbed. Probably some techno-mumbo-jumbo.

But here's the thing, about the secret identities. I just don't see how that fits with being a Minmatar, given their tribal nature. I mean, the whole thing with rank tattoos and all that, and wearing clothes that show them off and so forth.

Someone with a secret identity, whose face is hidden, saying to a Minmatar: "Hush child, and listen. You need to do what I say". As far as I can tell, the Minmatar, any Minmatar, would be inclined to say: "I'm sorry, but... who the f.. do you think you are, and why do you think you can tell me what to do? Get Out"

but no, the masked elders say "OBEY", and minmatar people go "OK".

[Random Sentience]

Elders are meat puppets of the Sleepers/Enheduanni/Architects. It's stated as far back as Theodicy. Since Theodicy (literally and figuratively) forms the basis for both TEA and Templar One... well, let's just take a look.

The attack on CONCORD was... well, the Sleepers/Enheduanni/Architects' idea, because they were making moves against Jamyl "Zombie" Sarum's brain defect"Agent Smith".

[spoiler]Reading between the lines: Insorum was specifically targeted by "The Broker" because Sarum was addicted to Vitoc. The Broker can only be one person given this theory; a certain Jovian who makes an appearance in Templar One. This is of course a red herring, because basically, he realized he'd gone with the "wrong side" after somehow figuring out what the "brain demon" was (probably when the RD's started doing the bidding of Sarum, or when the Isogen-5 detonated his battleship). Further, much of the chronicles (if not all, really) can be directly interpreted given information in Templar One. Hence, the "vagueness" (because the novel had not come out yet).[/spoiler]

IN short: Humans are big dumb dummies, and all change in the cluster is due to super-intelligent ascended brain machines; either Capsuleers, Artificial Intelligences or Sleepers/Enheduanni/Architects/Terrans/Jovians/whathaveya'. Without them, humanity would be back in the stone ages, and everyone should bow down to them because they're super smart and awesome.

It's like saying aliens developed the nuclear bomb for the U.S. during the Manhattan Project, while ignoring that the atomic bomb was developed first (I'm looking at you, guys that made "The Event"). Sounds good if you don't think about it, but when you dig a little deeper, the bullshit shines through. Then you die a little inside because people actually believe it is based on reality. 

(Hence, "Theodicy", or "How can GodSleepers love us when heThey doesn't share all histheir awesome miracles with us every second of the day?")

Moral of the story: Nothing anyone does matters, ever, because the super-intelligent ascended brain machines already have everything planned out... except for what they don't, in which case their meat puppets will take care of it. Oh, and if we don't stop Jamyl Sarum, we'll all end up... uh... in a better position than the Sleepers wanted us, but we'll ultimately all be dead anyway because Singularity.

 

I for one can see how this can be salvaged, but I have no faith in anyone currently at CCP giving a rat's ass. Which is why I have a Plan B: Declare war on the storyline without ignoring it. Meaning, show that everything done in TEA/Templar One could potentially be done with the fake science that existed prior to Templar One/TEA.

It's not that hard. 

[Ulphus]

I'm now 50% of the way through Templar one, and it's much better written, as a piece of writing. You can really tell that TEA was TonyG's first novel.

As a Story, I'm really not convinced. No sign of Elders yet, but at least one holographic Jovian, I think. He's re-used a bunch of minor characters, but that's not that unusual.

I have yet to see a convincing argument why five templars are so much better than a battalion of Valklear, just because they're not afraid of dying. All the fancy nano-stuff and gear, I see no particular reason why that can't be applied without the brain-transfer-on-death stuff. But, like I said, only half way through so far.

Someone with a secret identity, whose face is hidden, saying to a Minmatar: "Hush child, and listen. You need to do what I say". As far as I can tell, the Minmatar, any Minmatar, would be inclined to say: "I'm sorry, but... who the f.. do you think you are, and why do you think you can tell me what to do? Get Out"

but no, the masked elders say "OBEY", and minmatar people go "OK".

Well, given that I'd never heard of them before reading 2 pages of theodicy and then throwing the rest of it across the room (difficult since it was a PDF). My reaction is pretty much as Louella's first suggestion.

And the whole respectful obedience really doesn't go with them being secretive and unknown, wouldn't you say?

[Ulphus]

Elders are meat puppets of the Sleepers/Enheduanni/Architects. It's stated as far back as Theodicy. Since Theodicy (literally and figuratively) forms the basis for both TEA and Templar One... well, let's just take a look.

Are you telling me I'm going to have to read Theodicy as well? You bastard.

[Random Sentience]

Are you telling me I'm going to have to read Theodicy as well? You magnificent bastard.

Fixed. 

Also, yes. Yes I am. You'll see just how much is re-used by He-who-must-NOT-be-Named.

In addition, you might want to read Ruthless. It puts into context just about everything in relation to Ishukone.

Even the name of the AI.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, obviously I don't understand the slighest thing of what you said about Jamyl and architects but I guess that I would have to read the books.

But no, just hell no.

[Random Sentience]

Well, obviously I don't understand the slighest thing of what you said about Jamyl and architects but I guess that I would have to read the books.

But no, just hell no.

I don't blame you. I honestly don't.

[Creep]

I see the Elders as the Minmatar version of the Enclave. Powerful, confident that they are capable of rebuilding their race with their pure and unaltered-by-apocalyptic-event genetic pool/socio-political attitudes and cut-off from the rest of the world.
Also they're cunts.