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Author Topic: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness  (Read 4113 times)

Seriphyn

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One trend I've noticed in EVE RP is the tendency to label all governments as corrupt and self-serving, needlessly oppressing their own people yaddayadda. Now, it might be the case that not all of us have wasted the last 3-4 years of their life researching international politics and diplomacy (unlike me), but I think this paints the four empires in a somewhat unrealistic light.

From what we've seen of the politicians in EVE chronicles and other fictional material, they don't seem to be as corrupt as we make them out to be. Foiritan wanted the best for the Federation and was willing to destroy his own reputation to do so, and Heth wants the same for his State (even if influenced by irrational hatred against all things Gallente). Jamyl Sarum has the advantage of being a monarchist; she doesn't need to pander to ANYONE (especially popular or corporate interests) in order to pursue her own goals on her own moral convictions (see, latest trailer, and hereditary leaders in general). The 'war room' writing of Empyrean Age and Templar One of the Federal cabinet is hardly "hohoho let's find out new ways to oppress our citizens and be evil".

What I'm finding are claims against an empire with little imagination applied to back said claims up. For example, Seriphyn proposed to other anti-Feds in the Summit, saying "Do any of you actually know what a federation is and how it works?"...the response was pretty much on the lines of "democracy sux and is oppressive lolol" and mine OOC (to myself) was "Eh...". Nobody is willing to look at things three-dimensionally, and would rather agree with each other that "this group sucks" without thinking about it holistically and comprehensively as to WHY.

For example, no matter how much we hate democracy IRL and prefer alternative systems yaddayadda, the Federation does NOT actively oppress its own people, because it is a DEMOCRACY (and a far truer standard than examples we have in reality). INSTEAD, it is a question of what the Federation does not do as opposed to what it does do. It fails to act and respond to injustices within its own society because it is hampered by law and public opinion (perhaps cultural sensitivity too). It ignores continuing societal problems due to lack of public interest or any tangible benefits to the wider system (perhaps long-term delicate situations that are hard to approach easily). It certainly does not go out of its way to act like an evil bastard, because there would be a populist uproar and the people responsible would be voted out (democracy, remember?). Can anyone name me a long-established and high-standard Western democracy (UK, US, France, and Scandinavia are good examples) in the late 20th/early 21st century that behaves in the same way as non-democratic regimes responsible for continuing atrocities found all across the world? I am not talking about exceptionalist events or flashpoints, either, but long-term problems that have existed in systems and structures for decades and decades.

I might be overestimating CCP here, but it's certainly of my own interpretation that the Federation's failings is about what it does not do rather than what it does do. Fact is, I'd love to have my character sit down and talk about the Federation's problems all day. Like a true Gallentean, he's aware of them and seeks the problems behind them. However, they are certainly more complex and subtle problems than "ebil oppression" or "democracy sux". There's also a somewhat repetitive notion going on that, while the Federation stumbles in mediocrity, the Caldari State is almost perfect in every way. I've certainly never seen a Caldari character openly talk critical of their own faction IC, and that might be a cultural character trait, which is fair enough. But there's a lot of "Anything you can do, we can do better".

I mean, if we REALLY want to go by RL standards here (as has been done with Federal democracy), than the Caldari State would be godawful. It's run by corporations. How many of us like corporations IRL? It's also a "dictatorship" (in-game words)...how many of us like dictatorships IRL too? But we all know that the Caldari State is not some irrational police state run by paranoid autocrats who want to keep ahold of their power. It certainly isn't free...I'm sure it's not a very nice place to live and many of us here would hate it...but that's the price you pay for being the most industrially and economically efficient faction in the EVE lore.

Anyway, point is, is that while the factions have their problems, it's certainly not as simple as how it's made out to be. I certainly think that empire corruption is grossly overestimated...in fact, there's a piece of lore somewhere that CONCORD is 'incorruptible', or at least, has a very low level of corruption. But to all our characters, apparently CONCORD is verrryy corrupt (doesn't seem like that to me though...they seem pretty intent on maintaining stability and the balance of power. They certainly weren't "ooo evil" in Templar One at least)

Or maybe I'm missing it completely. I get the impression many characters would just dismiss the empires as corrupt and evil so they can go back to publically asking each other IC what they had for breakfast or dinner that day. Or just agree with one another that this faction is bad because of a shared RL morality...or something. Maybe people just don't care about looking at holistic and complex problems, and would rather oversimplify the situations to "make RP easier"...which is a shame, really.
« Last Edit: 28 Mar 2012, 02:40 by Seriphyn »
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #1 on: 28 Mar 2012, 04:51 »

IC nobody would undermine their own government to an enemy.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #2 on: 28 Mar 2012, 05:35 »

This is often a case of OOC/IC blending, where people tend to put their OOC distrust in governements and all forms of authorities ICly. No wonder why the current fashion is playing a minmatar. Its cool and rebel. Its badass.

As much as it can be annoying for me sometimes, I do not find it totally absurd either. People often think that way, at least IRL. Same for CONCORD. People do not like CONCORD because its the main thing that prevents them to do what they want. They see it as oppressive and will find any retarded reason to spit on them (corruption, hidden agendas, whatever vOv). They are the cops, and you know how cops are often regarded IRL these days...

Anyway, there is also a strong level of mass fashion and trends at work here.
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Desiderya

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #3 on: 28 Mar 2012, 06:06 »

I've certainly never seen a Caldari character openly talk critical of their own faction IC, and that might be a cultural character trait, which is fair enough. But there's a lot of "Anything you can do, we can do better".

You know, it doesn't matter how often you repeat that argument, it doesn't make it any more true. I remember IC talks between Des and Seriphyn, multiple, that certainly contradict what you're saying there and when I'm looking around into the "What goes on on the Caldari Side of things" I can only repeat what I've said in another thread: There is barely no one who is not anti-Heth, and everyone who is still patriotic gets played the Fascist-card. Look around on the IGS, the latest contributions were those weird 'Provists r evil and detain hundred thousands of Ishukone citizens, we must rise up in rebellion' threads.

I'm getting seriously tired of your bickering about the oh-so-bad caldari roleplayers.
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Chowda

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #4 on: 28 Mar 2012, 07:28 »

I'm a US flag-waving 10-year vet conservative republican and I disagree with this:

Quote
I mean, if we REALLY want to go by RL standards here (as has been done with Federal democracy), than the Caldari State would be godawful. It's run by corporations. How many of us like corporations IRL? It's also a "dictatorship" (in-game words)...how many of us like dictatorships IRL too? But we all know that the Caldari State is not some irrational police state run by paranoid autocrats who want to keep ahold of their power. It certainly isn't free...I'm sure it's not a very nice place to live and many of us here would hate it...but that's the price you pay for being the most industrially and economically efficient faction in the EVE lore.

First off, Caldari megacorps are far more like Chinese corporations that are heavily subsidized to cover up loses in favor of gaining market share.  Gallente corporations are more like US corporations beholden to public shareholder demand for profit growth. 

Second, we know that Gallente culture and entertainment is laden with profanity and obscenity.  We have to assume the Federation government uses its power to protect the deviants over the objectors to uphold their brand of libertarian freedom.  Using our RL standards, many of us would be disgusted and find it a horrible place to live. 

Third, the criminal underworld thrives in the Federation.  Using today's standards, we have to assume the reason for this is civil liberty protection from unwarranted search, seizure, and monitoring which is being exploited by law-breaking gangs.  Nice for the gangs, horrible for the Federation citizens living next door just trying to lead a good, normal life. 

Also, I like what corporations bring to our marketplace and there's a stronger power to punish them when they break the law.  Get rid of corps, the government fills the void with nobody left to keep them in check.     

Lastly, I'm sure you will always get trolls in threads you start on IGS.  However, I think you'd get less of them, and maybe some willing to engage in discussion, if you didn't IC troll similar threads dealing with the Caldari or news events.
 
« Last Edit: 28 Mar 2012, 07:31 by Chowda »
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Kiki Truzhari

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #5 on: 28 Mar 2012, 07:34 »

Seriphyn, I think the problem lies in the fact that you're asking two groups of people (the minmatar and the caldari) for their opinions on the Federation, well, both those groups are very very meritocratic, and they see what goes in the Federation as a circus and a popularity contest that is putting very unqualified people in positions of power. Now, whether or not that is actually the case is honestly completely irrelevant. Its just what our characters think, and it doesn't really seem to terribly against the positions of the NPC parts of those factions regarding it.
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orange

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #6 on: 28 Mar 2012, 07:59 »

the Federation does NOT actively oppress its own people, because it is a DEMOCRACY (and a far truer standard than examples we have in reality).

...

It certainly does not go out of its way to act like an evil bastard, because there would be a populist uproar and the people responsible would be voted out (democracy, remember?). Can anyone name me a long-established and high-standard Western democracy (UK, US, France, and Scandinavia are good examples) in the late 20th/early 21st century that behaves in the same way as non-democratic regimes responsible for continuing atrocities found all across the world? I am not talking about exceptionalist events or flashpoints, either, but long-term problems that have existed in systems and structures for decades and decades.

Do you really think the Federation is a truer democracy than say California or Denmark?   Not a single world or community within the Federation, but the Federation as a whole?

The Federation is an amalgamation of hundreds of communities spread across light-years of space.  Its modes of democracy are as varied in size and scope.

As for democracy oppressing people - a true democracy without a court system willing to tell the democracy it is wrong can oppress minorities within its population.   California is a great example of that when it comes to same-gender marriages.  The people voted to make it illegal, but elitist judges threw it out.  In a true democracy, the same-gender couples would be oppressed.

The US & UK leadership for decades in the late 20th Century supported those same dictatorships around the world in order to maintain stability.  Throughout the first part of the 20th Century, the US struggled with racial equality.

In 21st Century France, there appears to be a continuing effort by the citizenry/democracy to oppress the immigrant population's rights.  Simple things like not allowing them to wear a head-cover as part of their religion is in-fringing on their religious freedoms.

Are these yet to the scope and scale of Syria or Libya?  No, but that does not mean that democracies can't begin down a slippery slop.
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BloodBird

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #7 on: 28 Mar 2012, 09:49 »

For my part, I've a bit of a divided opinion on the views cast towards my IG-faction of choice. (the fed.)

First off, the general banter is borderline acceptable. Mostly when crap gets flung at the Fed, (or used to back when I RP'ed actively) my toons took offense only when complaints were accusations not based around any kind of evidence or supportable claims, usually the most far-fetched accusations of the "lol yo su ebil" kind with no weight behind them. These were usually swiftly smacked down or written of as the unsupported ramblings of moronic anti-feds who clearly had no plan in mind beyond smack and banter for the sake of it.

On the other hand random claims or remarks meant to put the fed down as opposed to another faction or whatever usually did not see to much involvement - mostly these were more "innocent" opinions voiced by toons who simply did not live in or care for, the fed. Mostly considered harmless as they were 'only' the opinions of different toons, and only argued if it tended to get out of line or slip into unsupported ramblings, as above.

The only factor that actually bothered me, IC and OOC, was cases like the defections of Thulkalat, Nyxx, Nikita, Tyr Cloudstone and other former Pro-Feds who had suddenly "seen the light". This is where I feel the offense - long-standing supporters that spent time and effort assisting their chosen faction find out - all of a sudden - that they want to do something else. OOC inspired, no doubt. "Tired of this, find something else to do." The universal exit? Defect to the Angels, Guristas, Caldari or whoever and lay down the flames for the Fed while your at it.

I'm sick and tired of seeing toons leave faction X for Y and doing a complete 180, accusing their former faction and companions of being fools, supporting a corrupt and worthless cause, being to dumb to leave while they can, etc. etc. etc. The problem is not that they wanted to do something else, or that they did do something else, the problem is all of a sudden the cause they had given their all for or atl found enough reason to actively support is below worthless, beneath them, weak and deserving to be destroyed. Usually for fanciful and highly unlikely reasons.

As for CONCORD, most IC complaints I've seen directed at them comes form the pirates and pirate faction servants, and their agenda is as obvious as the sun. Other factions occasionally yell at CONCORD as well, like the Ushra'Khan, usually claiming some bias towards the Amarr Empire or whatever. That source of complaints are normally backed with some good arguments, even if the nature of the game means those arguments are flawed, flaws that people can use as counter-arguments.

On another topic I highly doubt that the criminal underworld thrives in the Fed due to very lax police laws as a general factor - there have been hints in many works of PF that the Fed as a general rule takes law-enforcement and combating the criminal element and black-market smuggling of anything from the latest drugs to pleasure slaves and other human-trafficking events very seriously. Their problem however is the very nature of the Fed - hundred of not thousands of member factions of varying size and methods. Some will be more capable in the local law-enforcement than others, some will be more corruptible than others, and more competent/incompetent. Another factor is that the Fed's primary "pirate enemy" is their nemesis in the Serpentis corp, and they have decades of practice in smuggling goods into the Fed any way they can, among them an extensive network of hidden dead-space gates and such. There is also the scope and scale of the nation and it's war on criminals to consider - many worlds may well be festering sores on the Fed's name due to rampant criminal activity and be quite unpleasant places, while others can be the complete opposite - cities, regions on planets or even entire planets that are effectively free of any major, organized crime. There is little if any PF that explains any of this, in fact, PF that details the levels of criminal influence any any of the empires don't exist IIRC. I'd love to read up on how bad/widespread/influential criminals or undesirables are in any nation, how entrenched are the Angels in Heimatar, for instance? I'd love to know.

However, final point is nothing indicates that the Fed is somehow more lenient towards crime or lawbreakers based on governmental design - it's not 'easier' to be a criminal in the Fed than anywhere else based on how the nation polices itself or organizes, but the citizenry does seem to be a greater mix of opinions and attitudes randing all the way from "I Don't care to have my Serpentis bro's arrested, and this dope is the **** yo" to activists calling for more police-state like conditions to combat what they see as a major issue. Federals do love their activist causes, after all.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #8 on: 28 Mar 2012, 11:11 »

Seriphyn, I think the problem lies in the fact that you're asking two groups of people (the minmatar and the caldari) for their opinions on the Federation, well, both those groups are very very meritocratic, and they see what goes in the Federation as a circus and a popularity contest that is putting very unqualified people in positions of power. Now, whether or not that is actually the case is honestly completely irrelevant. Its just what our characters think, and it doesn't really seem to terribly against the positions of the NPC parts of those factions regarding it.

Where does it say the Federation puts unqualified people into power?  Foiritan was extremely qualified in peacetime. Roden is also very qualified as well. Every society has meritocratic elements. If you're good in the Federation, you get top spot. Entrepreneurial spirit blahblah. Not as hardcoded as it is in the State. In the Republic, it's age/seniority...tribal elders, and all that. You couldn't be an elder at fifteen years of age, no matter your merits.

One thing I thought of...

The price of liberty is inefficiency (Gallente)
The price of efficiency is liberty (Caldari)
The price of stability is slavery (Amarr)
The price of freedom is stability (Minmatar)

All fit the four factions IMO, as a very baseline simplification, of weighing up pro's and con's.
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Alain Colcer

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #9 on: 28 Mar 2012, 11:46 »

Where does it say the Federation puts unqualified people into power?  Foiritan was extremely qualified in peacetime.

hahah that made me laugh out loud....

even for a pro-gallente like me, he was skillfull in managing public opinion, not being qualified as a President.

Do you rememeber the news that at some point portrayed the Federation in a sort of economic depression? later followed by an economic boom while the Caldari suffered a similar downturn period?

Anyways.....all real life forms of goverment are corrupt, its our nature, the only threshold is how much money is in for the take?

So in a galaxy having trillions of citizens, trading trillions of isk a day, don't you think corruption would be rampant?
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Seriphyn

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #10 on: 28 Mar 2012, 11:48 »

I'm sure there's corruption. I just don't think CONCORD and all the empires are sitting behind the scenes plotting how best to be evil.

And if he wasn't qualified, he wouldn't have managed the Federation through an economic boom/golden age.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #11 on: 28 Mar 2012, 12:33 »

Seriphyn, I think the problem lies in the fact that you're asking two groups of people (the minmatar and the caldari) for their opinions on the Federation, well, both those groups are very very meritocratic, and they see what goes in the Federation as a circus and a popularity contest that is putting very unqualified people in positions of power.

I really disagree with the fact that the Minmatar culture is meritocratic, considering how paternalistic and even in some case adultist it is, and also how elders and shamans are meant to rule. To my eyes it is mostly an IC new trend that has emerged in the minmatar RPer community to get somehow closer to the Caldari. But this is not the point here anyway, so forgive me if I went too far.

In 21st Century France, there appears to be a continuing effort by the citizenry/democracy to oppress the immigrant population's rights.  Simple things like not allowing them to wear a head-cover as part of their religion is in-fringing on their religious freedoms.

It is more complicated than that. If you mean that citizenry elected the current president, who then designed his governement, yes. But for the rest, it is mainly something the governement did and that created a lot of heated debates. Actually considering how low is the popularity of said governement, I would say that this is something mostly enforced by the governement itself, and not really by the citizens. I may be biased, though.

On another note, the reasons that leaded the governement to that kind of effort where mostly revolving around the principle of "état laïc", which is to make it short something that has been very central in the french Republics and being the clear separation of the Church and the state. It then evolved in freedom of religion for everyone, where religion has been shuned of every public institution. Currently, the concept is being twisted to extremes where the governement tries to erase most shows of religion in public spaces supposedly according to laicity principles. Though there is a huge gap between wearing the veil or a crucifix and playing the missionary in school, basically. Actually I would even dare say this was a shitstorm in a kettle.

So it has never really been aimed to immigrants (for once...), as it basically involved christians as well, and all other religions. People were quick to accuse an anti immigrant move just because the veil was involved, basically.

As for CONCORD, most IC complaints I've seen directed at them comes form the pirates and pirate faction servants, and their agenda is as obvious as the sun. Other factions occasionally yell at CONCORD as well, like the Ushra'Khan, usually claiming some bias towards the Amarr Empire or whatever. That source of complaints are normally backed with some good arguments, even if the nature of the game means those arguments are flawed, flaws that people can use as counter-arguments.

Ushra'Khan usually back this with arguments, which is fine and appreciated.

People I am the most refering to are not pirate factions that have obvious reasons to complain about CONCORD, but rather the average joe we seem to see everywhere and who is always like "fuck CONCORD, they are corrupted, yo", basically. Which is just weird. Especially for CONCORD.
« Last Edit: 28 Mar 2012, 12:37 by Lyn Farel »
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Kiki Truzhari

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #12 on: 28 Mar 2012, 12:47 »

Seriphyn, I think the problem lies in the fact that you're asking two groups of people (the minmatar and the caldari) for their opinions on the Federation, well, both those groups are very very meritocratic, and they see what goes in the Federation as a circus and a popularity contest that is putting very unqualified people in positions of power. Now, whether or not that is actually the case is honestly completely irrelevant. Its just what our characters think, and it doesn't really seem to terribly against the positions of the NPC parts of those factions regarding it.

Where does it say the Federation puts unqualified people into power?  Foiritan was extremely qualified in peacetime. Roden is also very qualified as well. Every society has meritocratic elements. If you're good in the Federation, you get top spot. Entrepreneurial spirit blahblah. Not as hardcoded as it is in the State. In the Republic, it's age/seniority...tribal elders, and all that. You couldn't be an elder at fifteen years of age, no matter your merits.

One thing I thought of...

The price of liberty is inefficiency (Gallente)
The price of efficiency is liberty (Caldari)
The price of stability is slavery (Amarr)
The price of freedom is stability (Minmatar)

All fit the four factions IMO, as a very baseline simplification, of weighing up pro's and con's.

I didn't say that he actually is unqualified, just that compared to the meritocracies of the state and republic, he looks to be unqualified. In the republic, you're an elder, with many many tattoos and accomplishments and you can very clearly look like you know what you're doing. In the State, you get into power by being the best at what you do. These two groups view what the Federation does as just a popularity contest in my mind.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #13 on: 28 Mar 2012, 12:54 »

It is more complicated than that.

Perhaps if I had a character with less baggage, I could perhaps attempt to explore with other characters how EVE life, too, is complicated, but eh...people react a certain way when text comes from behind Seriphyn's specific name. If I played by the "Got along with everyone" doctrine, I might have some success...

The stuff CCP was going for with the Abel Jarek/returning Minmatar storyline is a good example of a complicated demographical situation.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Overexaggerating corruption/government naughtiness
« Reply #14 on: 28 Mar 2012, 12:57 »

I didn't say that he actually is unqualified, just that compared to the meritocracies of the state and republic, he looks to be unqualified. In the republic, you're an elder, with many many tattoos and accomplishments and you can very clearly look like you know what you're doing. In the State, you get into power by being the best at what you do. These two groups view what the Federation does as just a popularity contest in my mind.

Presumably, people who don't know what they're doing, don't get put back in office - popularity is part of the entrance requirements, but it's not as significant when it comes to getting re-elected.

And on the note of re-elections, prior to Foiritan, presidents of the Federation served single 5-year terms with no possibility of being re-elected. So, given that in theory you won't get a second chance, there's a serious amount of pressure to only run for the position if you know what you're doing.
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