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[Halete]

My ignorance makes it seem as though people are cool with Makkal because I don't see where they're excluding her.

Heh...the mystery of having chat channels instead of physical locales in EVE RP...

^

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that Halete acts a lot different outside of the chat channels.

[Morwen Lagann]

I think that's the case for a lot of people, Hatele. (I'd even argue most, but :statisticswars: )

You'll rarely get a good discussion or conversation out of some people on the Summit, but corner them in a bar or some other 'meatspace' location and it's a whole different story. Seriphyn actually comes to mind here as an example; while over the years he and Morwen have rarely been able to have a discussion in public without it devolving into one of them sniping at the other being a spacelesbian (she's not) or a man-slut (he's not anymore, I think...), they did manage to have a pretty decent conversation in the middle of one of the sub-events during Revan's contest last summer where not only were they both civil and polite (possibly even friendly, god forbid), neither of them tried to kill the other.

The Summit is a decent place to be exposed to new faces. It is not, however, a good place to get to know the people behind those faces - for that, you probably want a smaller group and a quasi-physical setting, rather than a crowd and talking heads and audio feeds.

[Victoria Stecker]

The Summit is a decent place to be exposed to new faces. It is not, however, a good place to get to know the people behind those faces - for that, you probably want a smaller group and a quasi-physical setting, rather than a crowd and talking heads and audio feeds.

This. A thousand times this. I got my start at RP in the summit, meeting people and such, when it was a semi-physical location (VR environment for the sansha conference when the live events were in their early stages, iirc). But I actually got to know the characters when I got invited out to other places - the Dreadnaught (Kyber's now-defunct Bar), the last gate, etc. Later, Mercy's Keep, smaller corp-specific hangouts. People may have decided to accept the presence of slavers in public, but won't be willing to associate with them outside the neutral ground of the Summit.

In addition, I think there's been a resurgence of slavers and more hardline amarrians over the last couple years since I started playing. At that point, I think it was down to just PIE and most everyone else was taking the liberal "hugglefuck" path. That angle seems to have died down a bit and we're seeing more people willing to openly support slavery and the empire without being reformists.

[Morwen Lagann]

The new slavers on the block seem hit or miss to me.

There are some pretty good ones that feel believable, but there are also some that fall more towards the "Evil for the sake of Evil; also twirling moustaches is cool" end of the spectrum and feel more like parodies and mockeries than the "genuine article."

[Victoria Stecker]

I'm not really paying closet attention anymore (only look at IGS when somenoe mentions it) so the odds of my impressions being wrong are high. Still, even the mustache twirlers have a chance to develop into more complete characters, mine did (I think. maybe. mostly).

[Silas Vitalia]

* Examines Victoria's lady-face for a mustache *

[Victoria Stecker]

* Examines Victoria's lady-face for a mustache *

Tried to shave it off about a year and a half ago. Character is now psychotic rather than being sadistic just for sadism's sake.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The new slavers on the block seem hit or miss to me.

There are some pretty good ones that feel believable, but there are also some that fall more towards the "Evil for the sake of Evil; also twirling moustaches is cool" end of the spectrum and feel more like parodies and mockeries than the "genuine article."

I agree with this. Also, indeed, people accept slavers in the Summit, sometimes also on public events or in some public venues. But beyond that, people nowadays tend to keep slavers as far away as possible. What really flabbergasted me that Nico had some friends who, after a time of absence of me and Nico, stopped pretty much to socialize with her because she is a slave holder, while that wasn't a problem at all before... This is mostly true for Caldari. Nowadays, many Caldari seem to care a great deal what Amarr do at home, even though they claim it's not their business.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Judgmental bastards. That's our job!

[Matariki Rain]

Nowadays, many Caldari seem to care a great deal what Amarr do at home, even though they claim it's not their business.

Just saying that if this is indeed the case I think it's fantastic: changing social mores over time.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

What is so fantastic about the unavoidable? 'Social mores' change all the time, out of EVE as well as within.
The Matari are in an upswing in regard to (role-)player numbers and I won't blame them that they have a problem with slavers. Thing is, I think, that Caldari players seemingly think they have a choice to make in game: socializing with the slavers or the anti-slavers. Of course, as in pvp, it's usually the numbers that decide. So, through maximizing the number of people they want to interact with, the Amarr get the boot, so to speak, I think.

I think it's also OOC bleeding over into RP here: Slavery is, to most people, by definition something evil and a very tangible at that. It's always been the strong point of the Minnies imho in the slavery-debate: appeal to the moral sensitivities of the players. That's not to say that Matari or others gave no anti-slavery arguments. Still, I think this 'social mores' change is not so much a result of RP, a change within RP. If you've to decide something like with whom you want to RP more intensively and you can't really decide, it's easier to go with the option that caters your personal morality.

So, while I think that this kind of thing happens quite naturally  and I don't think of it as something bad - of course every RPer can and should decide with whom they prefer to play - I don't think that it's in any way fantastic. vOv

[Esna Pitoojee]

While I don't doubt that there is some OOC bleedover, I think there's another thing involved in this that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Up until a very short while ago, my impression was the PF suggested the Caldari tolerate, if not accept the Amarr practice of slavery. They disagree with it, but for purposes of the alliance with the Amarr they don't raise an issue so long as the Amarr don't enslave the Caldari.

Then there was a series of news articles involving a mining disaster in the State, and how the State rejected Amarr offers of assistance because the rescue teams would be slaves. For the first time, it was explicitly stated that not only do the Caldari disapprove of slavery and do not traffic in slaves themselves, but even contracting work to companies using slaves in the State is illegal. This was a major change in the Caldari viewpoint on slavery, and something I think heavily effects in the current debate.

[Seriphyn]

It's always been the strong point of the Minnies imho in the slavery-debate: appeal to the moral sensitivities of the players.

Aaaah, run into this constantly. I find inferring IC/OOC (not really sure these days...) that the Amarr/Caldari are authoritarian states is received negatively. The only "liberal" state is the Federation, and even then their society/culture is quite extreme and libertine in some places. Both Amarr/Caldari have 'indoctrination to the state' inferred in multiple places (such as MIO, trade assessment corp desc), but few go this route, as such a word makes our OOC morality uncomfortable. I am very confident that if the Caldari State existed IRL, most of us would despise it to the core.

A much more appropiate response I'd like to see is that "Yes, we are what you Gallenteans call 'authoritarian', but we are much more stable and efficient than your Federation will ever be". Which is true; it says the Amarr Empire is the most stable in all New Eden, because of the whole control factor, whereas individual freedom in the Fed makes them fragmented, indecisive and inefficient. I don't think there always needs to be a kneejerk reaction when someone calls your faction authoritarian.

It's more of a group thing rather than an individual matter though, I reckon. Individuals in the Summit will shun anyone who goes against the established moral status quo (Slavery is bad, everyone should get along, Gallente democracy sux because US democracy sux >_>). Even a more colonialist Gallente will get shunned just as much as an indoctrinated Caldari Provist.

I think Gessanier pointed out on the IGS how 'Gallentean' the capsule world is (free market economy based on individual entrepreneurs, cosmopolitan, everyone is free to do whatever they want within limits set by CONCORD). That would certainly compensate for all the OOC moral bleedover. Gallente cultural imperialism!

[Lyn Farel]

While I don't doubt that there is some OOC bleedover, I think there's another thing involved in this that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Up until a very short while ago, my impression was the PF suggested the Caldari tolerate, if not accept the Amarr practice of slavery. They disagree with it, but for purposes of the alliance with the Amarr they don't raise an issue so long as the Amarr don't enslave the Caldari.

Then there was a series of news articles involving a mining disaster in the State, and how the State rejected Amarr offers of assistance because the rescue teams would be slaves. For the first time, it was explicitly stated that not only do the Caldari disapprove of slavery and do not traffic in slaves themselves, but even contracting work to companies using slaves in the State is illegal. This was a major change in the Caldari viewpoint on slavery, and something I think heavily effects in the current debate.

Yes Esna. It is weird since it is stated in the eve wiki article on slavery that the Caldari have absolutely no issues with slavery (they do not find it immoral).

Perhaps uniquely among the people of New Eden, the Caldari have no known history of slavery. While their critics often use the term “wage slave” in reference to Caldari workers, in reality, Caldari workers enjoy freedoms that set them apart from actual slaves. While conditions among the working class can be harsh, recent reforms under Tibus Heth have been aimed at easing the burdens of the workers, though the efficacy of these programs is debatable.


History

The Caldari have no record of enslaving other races or each other. While they have conquered and killed, slavery seems to be unheard of among the Caldari. There are numerous theories given as to why this is the case; the most widely accepted is that the harsh conditions on Caldari Prime made enslaving others not worth the trouble.

The arrival of the Gallente and the subsequent rise of the corporate culture of the Caldari reinforced this predilection against slavery. It wasn't until contact with the Amarr Empire that the concept of slavery was introduced to Caldari society. The Caldari considered it a curiosity, but as they were locked in a struggle with the Federation, they were unable to contemplate it deeply.

After the end of the war, the State was allowed to examine slavery more thoroughly. While the institution was discarded by the Caldari as unpractical, there are some who believe that as the State grew stronger and more stable, the Caldari allowed themselves to be influenced by their Amarr allies. A small number of sociologists hold a controversial view that the influence of the Amarr was a factor in the declining conditions of the Caldari working class that eventually led to the rise of Tibus Heth.


Societal Views

Slavery is a completely alien concept to most Caldari. Despite this, they do not consider it necessarily immoral. Rather, the Caldari view slavery through a very practical lens. While they understand slaves provide ostensibly free labor, they also realize that a slave owner needs to feed, house, and clothe his slaves. Additionally, though slaves can produce items of value, they are unable to purchase anything and thus cannot contribute to a healthy economy.

Therefore, the Caldari view slavery as a misguided notion that does more harm to an economy (and thus a proper society) than good. However, the Caldari also consider the affairs of other nations their own business, as long as it does no direct harm to the State. As a result, the Caldari find no difficulty in being allied with the Amarr Empire and Khanid Kingdom. They may believe those nations would serve as better trading partners should they abolish slavery, but they wouldn't presume to meddle with their society.

Despite this, slavery and transporting of slaves is illegal in the State. This has led to at least some tension, when the Caldari refused to allow a rescue team composed of slaves enter the State to assist in the rescue of trapped miners.[48][49] Compromises were offered, but rejected[50], and it was not until a team supposedly composed of free men was sent by the Amarr that the situation was resolved[51]. When it was revealed that slaves had participated in the rescue, legal issues arose.[52]

I think what made the Caldari strictly disapproved Ducia's offers is essentially a matter of rigid bureaucracy and a particularily strong attachement to the rules and laws. It is stated that the Caldari do not mind at all what other nations do as it is their own business, as long as it does not harm the State. Here, it happened directly in the State territory, so I think that the opposition Ducia got from Caldari authorities was mainly a matter of breaking the law. If I remember correctly, it was especially caldari authorities that were opposed to that rescue. Corporation directors and families were strongly disagreeing with said authorities and wanted Ducia to intervene, actually.

The issue is not in the news or in the PF in my opinion. The Caldari still do not view slavery as evil or as something they have anything to say about as long as it does not happen in their own space. The PF is pretty clear about it, even if it says that some Caldari think that Amarr influence made their workers work in harsher conditions.

The issues is with some Caldari players then. They may not sound as Caldari as they think.

[Los Muertas]

I am rather new to the community, but I would like to weigh in on this subject. I think IRL most people are good at heart and this makes playing a "slaver" hard as, over time like some have said, real life morality worms its way into your characters. I think the biggest thing that people (Amarrians in this case) do wrong is how they think of slavery.

Most people in the Eve community focus on Colonial Era United States or 1980's South Africa when they think of slavery (yes I know South Africa wasnt a slave country 1980's but go with me here). They think of whips and chains, murder, rape and all the other sorts of vile things that go along with he modern thoughts on slavery, this however is not a good reflection of Amarrian Slavery.

The Amarr Empire is a religious empire, ordained by God, to bring his(her?) love, teaching and word to all beings of New Eden. The downside is that only those who were born Amarr are capable of receiving God by "Grace" (ie by the simple acknowledgement that God is God, the saviour of man and all that). Those not born of Amarr cannot receive the word of God by Grace, but by works (ie they must earn God's love). There are many forms of "works" and it isnt always a slavery process (see Khanid and Ammatar).

When a Holder gains that religious title, it means that they (in theory) are of such virtue and piety that they have been deemed trustworthy enough to guide the lost souls of New Eden to the word of God. Look at "The Burning Life" where the agent character goes to the Amarr to find solice. It is described as a day filled with religious reflection, working of fields, sermons and more religious reflection. She took on "works" of her own accord and thus is not subject to whips and chains, whats more as some one who came to God, instead of God's servants having to come to her she is afforded the right to leave when she wishes, the thinking being "she has come to God once of her own, she will return".

Those who do not come to God on their own (Minmatar) must be made to be redeemed, still through "works". This is more akin to a parent saying to a child "this hurts me more then it hurts  you" as I think a properly RP'd Holder is more concerned with the redemption of a mans soul then the economic boon of not having to pay for labor. Not much has ever been said of what an Amarr slave plantation looks like but I would assume that it looks like early morning prayer, meal, working, prayer, lunch, work, sermon, dinner, shower, religious reflection, sleep. Beatings on plantations would be more akin to "torture the flesh to save the soul" mentality then "im just a cruel and sadistic bastard muwahahahahahaha!"

I think if you look at slave holding in this light, it makes it more palatable to play while keeping your character more human to your real life sensibilities. Now dont get me wrong, I am not going to go all Eran Mentar and stop RP'ing a Minmatar that hates you for what you do, im just trying to help with some RP ideas for those who may be thinking of this line of play but find common thoughts on slavery to hard to foloow through on.