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[Morwen Lagann]

Kaikka Peunato's officer description would imply it's not as simple as a surface interpretation, Dex

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Motherfucking CCP. I leave for a measley 6 months and they screw my faction up the bum. Now I just want to hit the unsub button again in protest.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Personally I always liked Veron Daerth's approach to Imperial RP.

He came up with a plausible reason why his slaves might be happy with his ownership of them and would resist attempts to free them. That made for a much more interesting range of interactions.

But, yes, the official CCP line does seem to have somewhat wasted the potential offered by the empire and it's history.

[BloodBird]

Why did you have to remind me of Veron? Now I remember how much I miss that guy.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Veron was a sort of pseudo-mentor for Esna's line of thoughts on things, yes. And yes, I horribly miss him too.

[Matariki Rain]

Comments and idea-spinning...

As pointed out, it's been explicit for a while that--at least in some circles--it's not safe, let alone a wise career move, for a Caldari to be known to be gay. I'm not sure whether I'd expect the resurgent patriotism at the moment to make this more or less the case: I'd expect "traditional Caldari values" to be big, but that those values would be re-cast in ways that suited the current leadership. That depends a lot on gender roles, though, and since Caldari seemed to be originally intended as a non-gendered society I wouldn't expect the sorts of military/paramilitary brother-bonds + breeding programmes that you might see otherwise.

Gallente (but not necessarily other Federalists) generally don't care who or what or how many you have sex with. I'd assume a low-ish, Euro-style age of consent. I'd also assume it'd be a big deal to establish consent, since rape would be seen as a crime against individual sovereignty. You can do pretty much whatever you choose with your own individual sovereignty, but having someone else take that choice away is fundamentally badwrong.

I'm actually a bit surprised at what's felt like fairly vanilla (serial-monogamous?) nuclear family relationships when we've met Gallente. I haven't read everything (yet), though. Gallente customs concerning childcare and child education seem to be important and not currently well described.

I've long seen Amarrians as holding that heterosexual marriage is for duty, and if there's affection there as well that's a nice extra blessing from God. I've never been clear about the official and actual Amarrian views about sex that doesn't happen within marriage; about contraception and abortion, which affect things a lot; and about the effect of relative status when choosing acceptable sexual partners. My own assumptions are based on Roman models, complete with the infamous Mercedes simile. I could be quite wrong.

I'm too close to Matari views of appropriate and inappropriate and pragmatic expressions of sexuality to talk about that fluently without a long run up and maybe some alcohol. "It varies."

I was involved in an IC discussion recently where a non-Matari reproached a group of Matari for being intolerant. I was trying not to pour accelerant on the flames at the time, so held my tongue, but in my experience tolerance is a Gallente virtue, not a Matari one. There's quite a bit about people's lives that Matari don't much care about (especially if whatever it is seems to work for that person's particular clan), but I don't think Matari make a virtue of putting up with differences in the things they do care about. I think this can be a bit challenging for some players, both those from outside expecting that the "free the slaves" people will be all huggy and understanding, and those from inside whose clans might have quite different and incompatible ideas about what's acceptable behaviour.

[Vieve]

I'm actually a bit surprised at what's felt like fairly vanilla (serial-monogamous?) nuclear family relationships when we've met Gallente. I haven't read everything (yet), though. Gallente customs concerning childcare and child education seem to be important and not currently well described.

I've played with "quadripartite marriage" within my corner of the Gallentean sandbox, that is: the ideal union is one that satisfies one's emotional, intellectual, physical and social needs, but it's not necessary -- and often impossible -- to have all of those needs met by a single person.


Not that I ever made it easy on the characters of mine who believed in this sort of thing: Celeste's children (Vieve to lesser extent than Sabi) disliked her being emotionally/intellectually/often physically wed to a Lai Dai rep while she was socially/occasionally physically married to their father.  Not that they didn't grow up to appreciate their mother's point of view.  For example, no doubt to his surprise and alarm if he'd ever realized it, for a time Vieve considered herself intellectually married to Jules Soter while her emotional, physical and social needs were being met elsewhere.

[Matariki Rain]

I've played with "quadripartite marriage" within my corner of the Gallentean sandbox, that is: the ideal union is one that satisfies one's emotional, intellectual, physical and social needs, but it's not necessary -- and often impossible -- to have all of those needs met by a single person.

So that's what was going on.

I think I like it. It sounds like a more granular approach to self-actualisation in relationships, and that seems an appropriate Gallente concern. Also something that could have all sorts of interesting complications over time-sharing aspects of your partners.

Not that I ever made it easy on the characters of mine who believed in this sort of thing: Celeste's children (Vieve to lesser extent than Sabi) disliked her being emotionally/intellectually/often physically wed to a Lai Dai rep while she was socially/occasionally physically married to their father.  Not that they didn't grow up to appreciate their mother's point of view.  For example, no doubt to his surprise and alarm if he'd ever realized it, for a time Vieve considered herself intellectually married to Jules Soter while her emotional, physical and social needs were being met elsewhere.

So the selection and mixing can be a personal thing, made and modified quite informally and possibly without the input or knowledge of the people being selected?

I vaguely remember "Vieve's husbands" from three-four years ago.

[Vieve]

I've played with "quadripartite marriage" within my corner of the Gallentean sandbox, that is: the ideal union is one that satisfies one's emotional, intellectual, physical and social needs, but it's not necessary -- and often impossible -- to have all of those needs met by a single person.

So that's what was going on.

Among a few other things, including the flagrant abuse of quantum physics.

So the selection and mixing can be a personal thing, made and modified quite informally and possibly without the input or knowledge of the people being selected?

Yup. 

For yet more evidence that I'm completely insane ... when I hit pause on things, Vieve was still convinced that Celeste was married to Stitcher, though she wasn't entirely sure in what aspect/set of aspects.

(Of course, Celeste downplayed the whole matter to Stitcher. And she's never made a big deal out of Vieve's calling Dex Nederland "Uncle".)

I vaguely remember "Vieve's husbands" from three-four years ago.

In an OOC or IC context?  I'm curious.   Er ... PM me?  I think we're already at risk of derailing the thread.

[Hamish Grayson]

Kaikka Peunato's officer description would imply it's not as simple as a surface interpretation, Dex

Gah, I wish I could find my copy of Chrysanthemum and the Sword!   It describes the Japanese 'group think' very well.   

http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Primer.html

3. Honne and Tatemae

There is the way things are and the way we'd like them to be. The reality and the facade. The real reason and the pretext. The substance and the form. Being direct and being diplomatic. And the truth and the white lie. In short, that is honne and tatemae, respectively. Since avoiding conflict and trouble is extremely important in Japan, using diplomatic language is often used rather than the direct approach. It's said that in formal situations a direct "No" is avoided and there are a thousand nicer alternatives -- which can be true, but it depends a lot on the situation and social status of the parties involved. Some westerners unfairly call this deceptive, but this shows more ignorance of how the culture and language are intertwined. Japanese may say things very politely and vaguely, but if the meaning is not clear it's perfectly acceptable to ask for clarification. But while we in the west judge tatemae to be cake icing and hypocrisy, the Japanese have elavated it into an art. Sometimes, anyway. When it comes to creating a reason, in some cases the Japanese seem to have left their reasoning on Pluto. Like blocking European ski equipment from the Japanese market because "Japanese snow is different". In fact, almost every "reason" for not importing foreign goods is crammed full of it. While many so-called Japan "experts" tell the world about how much Japanese stress "harmony", the reality is that they push THE IMAGE OF harmony. What lies beneath may be completely different.

  Understanding Japanese Society, Page 114

...James Valentine discusses the general significance of marginality in Japan.  HIs own particular ares of interest have been those marginalised on the basis of their sexuality and witht people who suffer from disabilities...In a society that emphasesis form and clear lines of demarcatiion between Uchi and Soto, people who fall between them are seen as threatening.   One strategy is to try and adpot an apporpriate Tatemae for most situations, and many people spend much of their lives doing just that....Sexuality is a characteristic that is not necesarrily revealed widely in Japanese socieity and many homosexuals preferr to compartmentalise their lives to avoid ther parents and workmates knowing about that part of their lives. A general pressure to marry ahs  led to discrimination at work and at home against those with a preference for living an openly gay lifestyle.   Marrigates of convenience used to be a kind of solution, but the recent increase in the number of people living alone has made it easier to be single and gay.   In general, private homosexual relationships have been more acceptable in Japan than in many other contries for centuries, but these sexual practices were neither exclusive, nor did they necessarilty determine a marginal lifestyle in publice.

I remember reading somewhere about how the social concepts of Honne and Tatemae apply to homosexually.    As long as a person endeavors to keep up the facade of heterosexuality, their peer group will accept the facade even if they know the truth.   

In the case of Kaikka Peunato, I doubt the type of person who leaves mainstream Caldari society to become a a legendary homicidal space pirate is the kind of person who blended into the crowd.

http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/gays-in-japan-stay-in-the/

[Bong-cha Jones]

[As long as a person endeavors to keep up the facade of heterosexuality, their peer group will accept the facade even if they know the truth.

Ah, the 'confirmed bachelor'.  I don't know, I don't want to poke too hard at other people's cultures, but I think that reading the position 'we don't have a problem with you being gay as long as you pretend to be straight' as 'this culture does not have a problem with homosexuality' is maybe a little problematic.  Which is cool, you probably get all sorts of interesting, nuanced interactions by modeling the Caldari off these precepts, and it's certainly more interesting than sneering homophobic slurs IC

[Desiderya]

Yes, the ideal and most liberal situation would be that people could be openly gay without repercussions.
When you say "There's a problem with how homosexuality is perceived in Japan" I would agree with you, but stating that the japanese are homophobic would be still wrong. Homophobia consists of an irrational aversion and resentment, often even open hatred when religiously motivated, against homosexuals, which is a few notches more than 'looking the other way'.

[Bong-cha Jones]

Luckily, I'm not saying that

Of course, there are perception issues in Japan going beyond 'looking the other way', but I wouldn't categorize it as homophobia, because that's really a term with loaded meaning that isn't entirely applicable.

But that is getting far away from the Caldari topic (my fault); I think the thrust of my point was the last sentence, that I think that's a more interesting way of modeling how Caldari handle the topic than just taking a bog-standard homophobia angle.

[Desiderya]

Luckily, I'm not saying that

I agree, I just wanted to raise the point to the general audience that there can be something between absolute tolerance and homophobia.
Regarding caldari views I'm always a bit careful in applying japanese culture 1:1 to them, but in that case it sounds rather fitting, since with having caldari population issues in mind it is no big stretch to see that prolific marriages are seen as the necessary ideal.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Luckily, I'm not saying that

I agree, I just wanted to raise the point to the general audience that there can be something between absolute tolerance and homophobia.
Regarding caldari views I'm always a bit careful in applying japanese culture 1:1 to them, but in that case it sounds rather fitting, since with having caldari population issues in mind it is no big stretch to see that prolific marriages are seen as the necessary ideal.

Your point about degrees of reaction to something seen as "not normal" is taken and appreciated.

I'm not sure that the State would be that bothered about natural reproduction as this is a society that can tube grow more people. That said is there any indication what the social status of tube children is in PF?