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[Yoshito Sanders]

If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages.  Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.

You're informed that by a volunteer (hence the ISD in his tag), which is different than CCP. His contributor page says he is a member of Mercury. What he tells you may not be the official party line of CCP. But since Abraxas is on vacation until after the new year, he's probably doing something else than work. I assume they are going to eventually update Heth's article, and Jacus Roden's, and Hilen Tukoss, and Suoro Foiritan, and Uriam Kador, and so on and so forth, until they're all at the relative quality of Jamyl Sarum's.

Like Dex said, CCP needs to go through and mark specific pages as IC or OOC knowledge.

But good luck with them having the time to do it before the damage done is too great.

I don't see how this is any different than it was before. People used information from chrons as IC information all the time. I don't see how info being on the Wiki makes it any more IC than it was before. It's just in a different location. The articles appear to be written at least somewhat ICly, but there is also quite a bit of obvious OOC information in them.

[orange]

If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages.  Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.

You're informed that by a volunteer (hence the ISD in his tag), which is different than CCP. His contributor page says he is a member of Mercury. What he tells you may not be the official party line of CCP. But since Abraxas is on vacation until after the new year, he's probably doing something else than work. I assume they are going to eventually update Heth's article, and Jacus Roden's, and Hilen Tukoss, and Suoro Foiritan, and Uriam Kador, and so on and so forth, until they're all at the relative quality of Jamyl Sarum's.

You mean like it was on 1 May 2011?

[Yoshito Sanders]

Do you mean that Tibus Heth's article as it stood on May 1st was anywhere near an acceptable article?

[Louella Dougans]

Well, I was given a chatlog, where there's someone talking, and they say something that would be reasonable, and someone else tells them they're doing it wrong.

the first person was talking about some amarr scriptures and how they show one thing, about righteousness of people, and the person concerned is a blood raider. They're quite obviously fishing for people to rp with, to interact in space and stuff.
The second person has no intention of interacting in space with them, and just goes "no youre wrong. wrong wrong wrong" and that "the historical record shows that X, Y, Z happened", which shut down the conversation.

So. vOv

[Yoshito Sanders]

If the actual historical record does show it, then that's all there is to it. It depends on context, of course.

If someone says something like "No, the EVE Gate collapsed in XXX year, it says so on this timeline!" then yeah, that's kinda taking information that should probably be OOC and using it IC. But if it's something like "No, Damius III died in 22626 AD!" then that's just IC info which has been firmly established now.

This is, of course, no different than things were before. There's always been people who went "No, this!" and pointed to a chronicle which contained information they wouldn't have known about ICly. There's just more information now, much of it knowable IC and some not. It would be very nice if CCP separated them out somehow, but I don't know if there's an elegant way to do it.

[Louella Dougans]

E > I read some stuff the other day about you know? the Udorians?
E > They were like, unrighteous and stuff, being all evil and oppressing people until the true amarr showed them the Word and stuff and then they became believers, was pretty interesting
A > Except that's not what happened
E > are you an Udorian ?
A > No.
E > k then
E > are you one of those false believer dudes? the theology council dudes ?
A > The historical record actually shows that the Udorians were a far more progressive and liberal society than the Amarrians.
E > Nah, that can't be right, otherwise that'd be like, in the books and stuff
A > The books the Theology Council approve?
E > No
A > People were actually leaving Amarr Island to live in the Udorian Empire because it was less oppressive and authoritarian.
A > The Amarr didn't like that.
E > the scriptures and stuff say things about Udorians becoming righteous
E > Just like you know, it's Written that all are Welcome and can like, become Chosens
A > The Scriptures have as much relation to actual history as a slaver does to an asteroid.
E > Nah dude

Information about Udorian society at a time 350 years before the Amarr conquered them, 1000 years before the Empire developed spaceflight, and 2000+ years before the current day.
Information that would only be found on objects from the capital world of the society that is probably the most impenetrable to outsiders.
History is written by the victors, etc.

There isn't any reasonable way that that would be known IC to anyone who is not an Amarrian academic.

But no, it's used by players to tell someone they're doing it wrong and stifle their RP.

Every capsuleer's an expert on every society, yaaaay.

Isn't That Fun.

[orange]

Do you mean that Tibus Heth's article as it stood on May 1st was anywhere near an acceptable article?

Yes, I think it had a lot of acceptable & useful content.

Instead of pruning what had been added without any reference material out there, CCP/Mercury decided to effectively nuke it back to the original plus a few edits.

[Yoshito Sanders]

The article on May 1st appears to be the exact same as the current article, with an additional long block of text from the Empyrean Age. That's not really a good article at all. It's the exact type of bad article that needs to be replaced.

Is the current one any better? No it isn't. It's pretty much terrible too. Hopefully it'll eventually be rewritten to be good.

[Morwen Lagann]

Like Dex said, CCP needs to go through and mark specific pages as IC or OOC knowledge.

But good luck with them having the time to do it before the damage done is too great.

I don't see how this is any different than it was before. People used information from chrons as IC information all the time. I don't see how info being on the Wiki makes it any more IC than it was before. It's just in a different location. The articles appear to be written at least somewhat ICly, but there is also quite a bit of obvious OOC information in them.

To be honest, I'd prefer CCP take the initiative for once on something like this, and show us they care about their RP community and its collective sanity and facepalming quota, by rearranging the articles (or just adding sections to the end) to denote "what we actually know" to separate it out from everything else.

It would make it easier to point people in the right direction in a way that is less likely to open up derpy arguments, at least.

PS: FFFFFFFFUU---

[Sakaane Eionell]

To be honest, I'd prefer CCP take the initiative for once on something like this, and show us they care about their RP community and its collective sanity and facepalming quota, by rearranging the articles (or just adding sections to the end) to denote "what we actually know" to separate it out from everything else.

I don't agree with this suggestion. First, it would create a lot of work for the already limited resources CCP has to go back through the existing portal. I'd rather CCP and Mercury continue to work on producing new content.

I think most RPers, as intelligent and reasonable people, will make responsible judgment calls on what information is IC and which is OOC. The onus should be on us rather than to have CCP hold our hands for us.

People who cannot do this will still use the OOC information any way they wish whether it has an OOC tag on it or not. While making annoyances of themselves like the person in the conversation Louella quoted, they'll probably quickly find themselves ostracized from the community.

[Morwen Lagann]

Sure. But there are some stupidly stubborn people who just won't budge unless it's in writing - like the whole deal about Amarrians and taking slaves from outside of the Empire.

It's not a pleasant situation in general, really, but I guess if you don't read IGS much, or hang out in places like the Summit, you don't run into it as much. :p

For articles like the ones about Jamyl and Heth, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for such a thing. Nor would it be particularly unreasonable to suggest that some of the history pages have a note indicating that a lot of the older parts of the timeline are only there for reference and wouldn't be available to modern scholars. It wouldn't actually be as big a job as it sounds - many of the lore articles aren't mixtures of "OMG SEKRIT WE CANNOT KNOW" and "lol everybody knows that". Just ones involving specific plots of background chronicles, or some portions of the EVE novels.

[Matariki Rain]

Sure. But there are some stupidly stubborn people who just won't budge unless it's in writing - like the whole deal about Amarrians and taking slaves from outside of the Empire.

What's the issue there? I'm not hanging out on the places there it's apparently discussed, but my understanding is that we do have in writing both that it's illegal and that it happens (sometimes using Caldari proxies, sometimes not).

[Morwen Lagann]

People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not.

[Yoshito Sanders]

People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not.

So in this case, it's people just ignoring what's written, not utilizing OOC knowledge IC.

[Mitara Newelle]

With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p

So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?