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[Mizhara]

It's not 'your rp is wrong'. It's 'your rp is incompatible with mine, so I won't interact with you'. It's that simple. The universe we're in doesn't (as far as I can tell) support capsuleers being that... stupid. Regressive if you wish. Thus, when capsuleers does act in that way, it's breaking the universe my characters are in. That RP is incompatible with mine, so for the sake of both parties, removing interaction entirely would be the only viable solution.

And the challenge and response had to be pulled OoC because there was no way to properly RP it out, without breaking character. More importantly, it was a subject which I felt needed discussion and debate in case there was something I missed about it. Some justification for capsuleers acting like that IC, or some other motive than 'I will lose this debate. DUEL!'.

And it still bears debating. Would, in the New Eden day and age, with the sheer amount of education, knowledge and mental reasources of a capsuleer... well, would dueling still exist? I kind of doubt it. I don't see a capsuleer as someone that backwards that they'd even contemplate it as a solution.

[Mazca]

I could use the same argument for submissive religion, tobacco, or even even sounds in space. I don't stay away from Amarr, trading or pvp on that account. Fact of the matter is, we are playing a futuristic game constructed, carried out and interacted with by 21st century mindsets. You can ofcourse opt out of things that conflicts your IC experience. if done so consistantly though I see alot of  in your future mate.

[Mizhara]

Sound in space is explained in pf, actually. It's not really there. It's a simulation in the pod interface software that 'creates' the sound based on sensor input, in order to make the capsuleer more comfortable. It was created due to discomfort of having one sense utterly removed when inside the pod.

Tobacco: In this future of ours, I doubt they've still got cancer problems. Or at least, they've got their tobacco fixed up somehow. Hell, it's probably gone to the point of being healthy for you or something.

But your point still stands, of course. Except for one thing: The things you mention are there in PF. I don't see capsuleers dueling eachother and throwing away the lives of their crew in PF. If there are, please show it to me and I'll amend the views.

The thing is, opting out of things that conflict with the IC experience means less facedesking than engaging in things that are outright conflicting with both common sense, and the view of the universe from this end. And don't call me mate. I'm not yours, and I doubt you're mine.

[Mazca]

Senseless loss of of life? Avoiding conflicting with common sense in a computer game. Oh dear. Admittedly I havent read alot of the PF. is there anything inthere about warping through planets, ships inside each other, bumping, damage aoe of exploding ships, resource respawning... I guess there very well could be, and that would prove only that you can justify anything you want if you sit down and write about it. SF have a place in the alliance tournament, how are we gonna explain that?

Sorry I called you mate. Didn't expect you to take offence.

[Misan]

now as to the mail specifically,

I was surprised to see a 13 mail chain pyramid when i logged in but how cool that a simple "fight ye dog" mail had that much back and forth!  Julianus Soter's responces were rather hilarious in my opinion.  plus it was free from alt posting and all that lame sauce which makes IGS near useless.  That mail chain was just some folks who knew the folks involved and were into RP.

I am sorry if people saw any of it as some sort of attack in any way other than a white glove slapped on the face and then thrown down in front of someone who was at conflict.

Duels prove nothing and profit nothing, but then the same is true for everything in EVE or any game.  Its about have and making fun.

The content of the mail chain made it pretty clear that at least you and Jade were using the challenge as a tool to label someone a coward on the IGS Toma. I've already commented on that approach in an earlier post, so I won't readdress it. The mail chain wasn't particularly entertaining in my view, besides Soters response at least. Though I was probably disappointed to see 13 mails in my inbox and them not be more useful things like drug orders and alliance mails for pew.

About the last comment: as can be seen in some of the comments in the thread here, the view(s) being expressed are that Battleship duels (and to some duels in general) are not fun nor particularly fair. Tack on the various IC reasons for disliking duels in general and you can see why the event didn't happen in the end. I'm not even touching the potential for IC distrust here with relation to the arena choices, there are plenty of reasons for refusing to fight under those circumstances.

Senseless loss of of life? Avoiding conflicting with common sense in a computer game. Oh dear. Admittedly I havent read alot of the PF. is there anything inthere about warping through planets, ships inside each other, bumping, damage aoe of exploding ships, resource respawning...

Those are largely mechanics and coding limitations. It's the same with the lack of any clear evidence of crew on ships when you actually log in and play. Several of those CCP would probably want to implement if they had the resources or time. The examples you gave are unavoidable (...unless you never undock) while duels are a totally player made construct which no one needs to participate in if it breaks their immersion or they just don't want to. Do you have a more applicable comparison instead?

As an aside, I think that some of the dueling and 1v1 culture comes from other MMOs. WoW always had tons of people outside of the main cities dueling each other. I'm sure many when coming to EVE wanted to continue those habits, even if there were no explicit mechanics supporting the practice. I don't think the situation we are discussing here is derived from it, but figured I'd mention it anyway.

[Silver Night]

[admin]This thread has gotten pretty borderline, and I regret I didn't get to it sooner. I think, for the moment, the conversation has moved on, and modding out posts would just remove context, so I'm leaving it unlocked, and not modding for now. I reserve the right to go back and mod it when I've woken up more.That being said, calling other people's RP 'stupid' and 'crap' is not really constructive. In fact, it goes against the spirit of the board. I would suggest self moderation. Prefacing things like 'this kind of RP is stupid' with 'I think this IC' or 'it's my opinion that...' is not effective 'cover' and doesn't remove a responsibility to post constructively.

It is not a place for people to show how 'wrong' others are. It is not a place for the ventilation of personal vendettas. It is not a place for insults, either veiled or explicit. It is not a place for telling other people they are 'doing it wrong". It is not a place to carry on In Character feuds. Q: What's the difference between debate and argument? A: Debate or discussion involves people putting forward their ideas and opinions. Argument is when people start fighting over whose ideas or opinions are 'right'. For example, if you find yourself responding to a post with anything along the lines of 'You're wrong, because...', stop and think. Don't sit there working out what's wrong with someone else's idea. Propose your own, and tell us all the ways in which it's awesome. Everybody wins a discussion: nobody wins an argument. Q: So you want us to act all lovey-dovey? A: Yes. Deal with it. Q: What about free and frank debate? A: Strange as it may seem, given some of the forums on the internet, but it is possible to have an honest exchange of views without being rude, hostile, offensive, aggressive or bullying. That kind of behaviour destroys communities, virtual and otherwise, and Will Not Be Tolerated. Q: So I can't disagree with anyone's RP? A: Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours. For example: Player A writes: "I see the Intaki as space hippies." Player B answers: "Of course they aren't space hippies, there are no hippies in Eve." That would be the WRONG way to answer. The RIGHT way would be something like "Really? I see the Intaki as more techno-buddhists. That's how I play my character, but hey, it's a big Cluster, right?"

[/admin]

[Mizhara]

Hrm. I invoke the wrath of the moderators relatively often on these boards. Go figure, heh. Ah well.

[Mazca]

Those are largely mechanics and coding limitations. It's the same with the lack of any clear evidence of crew on ships when you actually log in and play. Several of those CCP would probably want to implement if they had the resources or time. The examples you gave are unavoidable (...unless you never undock) while duels are a totally player made construct which no one needs to participate in if it breaks their immersion or they just don't want to. Do you have a more applicable comparison instead?

I could name a ton of social settings and structures that I would deem outplaced and outdated if I was to give an OOC prediction based on contemporary observations. I am however just going with it, simply because I could very well be wrong, and I have no substantial evidence for any claim I would make in that regard. Social science is very much bound to time space historicity and so forth, so valid predictions are hard to make, thus it would be just as valid for Dueling to be a part of EVE culture as marriage, religion, natural reproduction, bigamy, slavery etc. simply because there is no valid argument for why it wouldn't be. You can create one or you can deny it by avoiding contact with it. but its unfair to fault others for doing it for RP reasons, or deem it stupid or regressive simply because you have issues with it.

[Tomahawk Bliss]

Seriously. Throwing away (in a battleship duel) hundreds, potentially thousands of lives just for the sake of argument? Stupid. REALLY stupid. I don't consider capsuleers to be that stupid. 

I further agreed to battle just to hull, not death. 

I assume then Zuzanna’s negotiation for “to hull” was to favor this view?  I have to say my toon actually doesn’t care about the life of crew on board. As a player I have trouble understanding how anyone’s character can care considering missions are done for isk and that kills thousands all the time and wars are done for entertainment.  Du’uma Fiisi actually has declared quite a few wars recently and ransomed the targets.  Risking your own crew’s life for money and killing industrial ship crews seems to run counter to this concept of crew-life sanctity.

I'm not convinced it was Bliss who challenged. I've let it be widely known that Miz doesn't fly Battleships. She can't. Bliss'd know that In Character. Hell, she even said it in SF that she'd never fly them

I agreed to smaller ships. 

I actually didn’t know or remember that about your toon.  I assumed it was a money issue.

But as to who issued the challenge anyone can view the IGS timeline for specifics.

1. Miz makes the attack propaganda thread about “We didn’t want NRDS anyway” over shooting a corp thief and the broadside was done at Tomahawk’s order.

2. Tomahawk ignores most of it, petty thread ended up blowing up in Miz’s face and Havo even posted on the thread that while he still thinks NBSI is the way to go, SF acted fairly by their NRDS RoE.  All is good, Du’uma Fiisi allies pulled Mizhara’s attempts to damage Tomahawk’s other allies under control.

3. In the -10 standings thread (-10 was issued by Du’uma Fiisi to all of Star Fraction, Du‘uma Fiisi being the agressor) Miz says specifically “then come for me. I will be here... waiting to see the hypocrisy of Star Fraction displayed so thoroughly when you strike at those who fight against your proclaimed enemies.”

4. Tomahawk now sees Mizhara egging a conflict on and connecting that motivation from the “We ddn’t want that NRDS anyway” thread.  Tomahwk is outraged and replies, “I've seem Du'uma Fiisi fight, i've flow with them even after they left Star Fraction and I did not see you.  Shut your trap and open your gunports.”

5.  Mizhara replies with a deep insult on Tomahawk‘s efforts and personal support of his friends Havohej and Zuzzana (one of which he has shared even genetic material with), “You proclaim to have been a Du'uma Fiisi supporter in Star Fraction...Your 'support' has apparently amounted to nothing, wouldn't you agree?”

6. Tomahawk then issues a formal challenge, ”I make to you a challenge of honor.  You and me, duel to the death.  You bring your Battleship of choice and i'll bring mine.  We will fight with real risk and let the ancestors sort who is the righteous warrior and who is the craven lickspittle.”

As you can see by the time line of posting Tomahawk was reacting to flagrant insult.  All good and fair and public available record.

[Ulphus]

(snip)...it would be just as valid for Dueling to be a part of EVE culture as marriage, religion, natural reproduction, bigamy, slavery etc. simply because there is no valid argument for why it wouldn't be. You can create one or you can deny it by avoiding contact with it. but its unfair to fault others for doing it for RP reasons, or deem it stupid or regressive simply because you have issues with it.

I have no doubt there is duelling somewhere in Eve - there's just too much humanity out there to say that it won't be, and with societies like the blood-raiders out there, there's probably people who think duelling is too namby-pamby. The question for me comes down to how well it is accepted in polite company as an appropriate way of settling disputes.

There are also different sets of "polite company".

It seems completely reasonable to me that some social circles think duelling in Battleships is normal and reasonable and that refusing them is cowardly, and for another social circle to think that it's gauche and barbaric, and for those social circles to mostly avoid each other, partly because of the issue.

I only really have an issue when one side or the other tries to claim that the universe as a whole supports their position to the exclusion of the alternative.

And I wasn't thinking of a particular incident when this thread came up, just duelling in general.

[Mizhara]

Never heard of smaller ships, never heard of 'to the hull'. After Mizhara said 'nope, can't even fly Battleships, wouldn't duel if I could', there was never a reply from Bliss except calling her a coward. Who you've been talking to, I don't know, because I've never heard that neither OoC or IC.

As for missions: That's killing others for ISK. Not your own crew. And it's for ISK, not for settling arguments. Warfare is warfare, not fair fights or fights over (what is IC considered) stupid reasons. It's got an actual goal, and far less risk than 'fair' fights where ISK and SP decides the outcome instead of tactical and strategic skill.

1. Miz makes the attack propaganda thread about “We didn’t want NRDS anyway” over shooting a corp thief and the broadside was done at Tomahawk’s order.

2. Tomahawk ignores most of it, petty thread ended up blowing up in Miz’s face and Havo even posted on the thread that while he still thinks NBSI is the way to go, SF acted fairly by their NRDS RoE.  All is good, Du’uma Fiisi allies pulled Mizhara’s attempts to damage Tomahawk’s other allies under control.

This is off-topic, but sure, since it's my thread I suppose I get to allow a bit of a derail.

1. It wasn't an attack thread. It was an IC congratulations, with a bit of a grin to it as she felt Star Fraction's hypocrisy showed, but still a congratulatory thread. Do I have to repeat that many times, before you stop lying about me?

2. Thread never blew up. Star Fraction took a congratulations and started spitting out lies, slander and insults. Very viable IC, and taken as such. Good stuff, but if it exploded in anyone's face, it was SF's. Until Cosmo came, gave a good explanation, and Du'uma Fiisi went "Ah, too bad. Congratulations retracted."

I don't mind debate on any given subject. [mod]No personal attacks please[/mod]

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I assume then Zuzanna’s negotiation for “to hull” was to favor this view?  I have to say my toon actually doesn’t care about the life of crew on board. As a player I have trouble understanding how anyone’s character can care considering missions are done for isk and that kills thousands all the time and wars are done for entertainment.  Du’uma Fiisi actually has declared quite a few wars recently and ransomed the targets.  Risking your own crew’s life for money and killing industrial ship crews seems to run counter to this concept of crew-life sanctity.

I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning.  Risking your crew in war will be for idealogical reasons or to earn your living. Ditto risking them in actions against NPC ships.

A pilot can be concerned with their own crew and not be concerned with killing a target's crew.

[Natalcya Katla]

Both of my parents are educated people, my mother being a physician and my father being an engineer. Still, they both regularly participate in the national lottery, even though doing so clearly flies in the face of rationality. They don't pour excessive, unaffordable amounts of money into it, but in a strictly rational economic sense, it's still a piss-poor investment. I imagine they get a certain thrill out of it, though. It's not one I share, which is why I never engage in gambling myself, but I can still empathize with other people's compulsions to do so.

For many capsuleers, the loss of a battleship is economically inconsequential. The loss of even a battleship crew of up to several thousand people is often emotionally inconsequential to them as well. And provided that a duel is fought in accordance with CONCORD laws, there are absolutely no legal consequences either.

Are capsuleers stupid and/or immersion-breaking for risking something they can easily afford to lose for the sake of personal honor, simple chest-beating or even just for the thrill? Irrational, possibly, if those reasons are all there is to it. Callous and cold-hearted, sure. But immersion-breakingly unintelligent? Not unless you're willing to attribute that same lack of intelligence and education to gamblers, extreme sports athletes and other regular risk takers.

[Mazca]

I only really have an issue when one side or the other tries to claim that the universe as a whole supports their position to the exclusion of the alternative.

I am not sure if that was directed at me, but we are in full agreement here. I was responding to the notion that anyone could exclude dueling from EVE for OOC reasons. Sure it can conflict with IC ideology, but it cant be deemed incompatible with EVE OOC.

[Ulphus]

I only really have an issue when one side or the other tries to claim that the universe as a whole supports their position to the exclusion of the alternative.

I am not sure if that was directed at me, but we are in full agreement here. I was responding to the notion that anyone could exclude dueling from EVE for OOC reasons. Sure it can conflict with IC ideology, but it cant be deemed incompatible with EVE OOC.

I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular, just a general note. I don't even know who you are, or what your general position is on it.