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[Mizhara]

:eyeroll:

It's not WoW in space. The mechanics are similar, yes, but what separates these avatar driven MMOs is the story, the worldbuilding and the storytelling. Saying it's 'WoW in Space' is like saying Modern Warfare is Quake 3 in a contemporary military world. It just doesn't compare even though the mechanics are very similar. FPS games have milked the same mechanics for two decades now and they're there because they -work-. They're good mechanics for that gameplay.

The same applies to SWTOR. They're using mechanics that work in their own story/world/universe.

And a small correction: I'm not 'in love' with neither WoW nor SWTOR at this point. WoW pissed me off too royally with the endless flow of stupidity that came along, ruining a perfectly good fantasy universe. SWTOR I -can't- be in love with since I haven't played it for a few months. I'll admit to having a crush on it similarly to how I also have a crush on the girl serving me coffee at a nearby cafe, but she's yet to open her mouth and show me she's got more than a body I'd kill for.

You on the other hand seem to have some kind of irrational hatred for the concept, without explaining why. What exactly is your beef with SWTOR? Any actual complaints or arguments to back it up? Anything at all beyond 'WoW in Space' which makes neither sense nor holds any validity.

[Misan]

Played up until level 10 during the beta weekend, enough to get one of the Smuggler advanced classes and get a taste for the PvP. Still hadn't got my ship back. FFUUU

It definitely uses WoW's combat mechanics, which I think is great, in lieu of a more involved combat system like turning it into a third-person shooter of sorts. I could have almost been interested in it, but there are a couple of things that kill my interest:

1) The (now) standard junk quests of Kill X or "right click on Y number of terminals" style of objectives that seem to never end. That was all I ever ran into, even on the main smuggler storyline. The only thing that differentiates some of these from WoW or Rift would be that you can sometimes turn it in to different people for Light/Dark side points and change the storyline a little. (And yes, I know this may as well be endemic, but stands as the primary reason why I've been burned out on more traditional MMOs / spoiled by EVE for a long time.)
2) The art style, especially for characters, bothers me. I think EVE and now Skyrim with their more gritty "grimdark" art styles has influenced this preference heavily, but anyway. All the characters in SW:TOR have a soft-cartoonish look to them. It is hard to actually take the characters seriously or get immersed in the setting when all the characters look distinctly non-threatening (even the scars don't help). In contrast I actually loved WoW's art style, as I thought it hit a perfect mid-point between high color stylized design and a more gritty realistic take on the universe.
3) It is still lacking polish in some areas that hurt immersion noticeably. When switching into the dialogue "mode" NPC switch from low-poly to high-poly as you are talking to them, which is super distracting and constantly bugs me. Cantinas and the more social areas tend to be de-populated so it feels more like you are wandering around alone (unless you pay attention to general chat) than actually being part of a thriving world, etc. I miss the days when you would walk into a Cantina in SWG and hear a small band of (PC) musicians playing.
4) Skyrim. 

[Borza]

The basic mechanics and interface of WoW are solid. After all, they amalgamated them from the most successful MMOs of the time and polished them up.
I'm not a fan of what Blizzard have done with WoW since vanilla but reducto ad WoWum applied to any and all aspects of another MMO is rather tiresome.

For a non-sandbox MMO swtor looks like above average evolution in the genre. Whether you like non-revolutionary non-sandbox MMOs is a different question.

[Graelyn]

Yes, gameplay wise it's the WoW mechanics. This is for the most part a very -good- thing.

It's not WoW in space.

You on the other hand seem to have some kind of irrational hatred for the concept, without explaining why. What exactly is your beef with SWTOR? Any actual complaints or arguments to back it up?

Because It Is WoW In Space.

It's being played not 20 feet from me right now. You're the only person I have heard try to say that it isn't what it is (right after admitting it is...)

It's WoW in space. With cutscenes. Some people will like this! Many will, in fact.

Many many many many people! They will love TOR.

The people on this forum who play the antithesis of WoW? I tell them to stay away, because they are almost certainly not going to like WoW In Space.

Gosh, what a terrible and unreasonable person I am.

[Borza]

How very subjective.

The term "WoW-like" is defined in different people's minds by different aspects of that game. Thus "WoW in space" is not a useful description.

[Graelyn]

Well, we disagree on that.

Still, anyone who doesn't understand the reasons behind my opinion should be pretty clear on the basics at this point.

[Mizhara]

Yes, Graelyn, you -are- unreasonable. Is it a fantasy world with Night Elves, Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, Werewolves and freakin' Pandaren? Does it have the same story? Does it have the same NPCs and so on? It's not the same game, Graelyn, no matter how much you want to go 'WoW in Space' as if it means anything. It's got WoW Mechanics, just like Rift and a huge amount of other MMOs. Hell, WoW's mechanics aren't even original to WoW itself. They just polished all the good stuff from other games and made it all work well together.

The mechanics doesn't make the game. That's just the hardened core that the game is built around. The world, story, storytelling, presentation, classes, community and so on is what defines an avatar driven MMO these days.

I can definitely understand that some people might not like this kind of MMO, but I think most of them will dislike it for the right reasons. Not because of "It's WoW in Space" which is not only highly inaccurate, but also rather insulting towards those who do like what that game was once upon a time.

Misan brought good points to the table and the mechanics can also be laid out point by point as something negative for those who don't like them. This doesn't mean the mechanics are in any way bad, just not for everyone. Judging by the market shares in various MMOs out there, I think it's quite desirable for the majority, though.

It's also Rift in Space. Also, Warhammer Online in Space. It's LotR in Space. Hell, Eve's practically the only MMO out there that this game isn't.

[Graelyn]

The mechanics doesn't make the game.

I think we're done here. 

[Lyn Farel]

I have the same feeling that Graelyn has. However, its my opinion. But mostly from what I have seen for the last past years :

1) The epic 100++ hours of awesome stories they promised are in fact the usual "kill x mobs", even if some of the class quests are okay-ish according to some friends (that are as bitter as myself which already means something).

2) Actually, around 80% of the quests you have  at your disposal are not even class quests, but generic quests shared by all the classes of your faction, and are rather the dull quests you know from every tasteless MMO in existence (meaning, 99% of them). So much for the 100+ hours of epic storytelling.

3) It is wow-esque with a starwars AND voiced NPC dialogue sugarcoat.

4) Graphically its mostly a disaster : the only thing that is really good is the environnement, an example of how good can be non realistic visuals. On the rest, it is not very creative (especially as it is obvious that they tried to be creative considering their artistical choices). And at last, the characters : the design is like Misaan said, they all look like good-natured people (even the ebil Sith) difficult to be taken seriously. But, the worst is their anatomy (their artists really should shoot themselves in shame for that considering the budget of the game), and the animations are very poor, especially considering their access to stuff like motion capture technologies (but hey, go try to animate a 10 polygons character properly...).

5) Still have to confirm definitly that both factions can't even interact with each other except on 4 planets (the pvp ones), even on pvp servers.

6) It is a solo RPG online.

[Victoria Stecker]

I'm definitely torn on this one.

RE: Miz v Grae, while I can definitely see how a game is more than just the mechanics, I have to wonder: What makes you think that SWTOR won't develop all the same problems that WoW has? If it has all the same good points (solid mechanics for both pve and pvp) what's going to stop it from growing the same detestable community? In fact, I think the Star Wars brand increases the likelihood that the game will be swarmed by little brats with midichlorians dripping from their noses. Just thinking about this is giving me flashbacks to Barrens chat.

tl;dr, if it's so similar to wow is so many good ways, why shouldn't we expect it to have the same problems?

Re: shitty missions, I think it might be that this is, in fact, Beta. Just because it's Bioware I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they're going to actually make the missions worth doing, rather than just a stupid, "Kill this, gather that, go there" grind. It could be that they are simply making sure the core game just works and will put in the flavorful, enjoyable stuff when there aren't a bajillion beta testers leaking every little detail to the public.

[Borza]

I'm definitely torn on this one.

RE: Miz v Grae, while I can definitely see how a game is more than just the mechanics, I have to wonder: What makes you think that SWTOR won't develop all the same problems that WoW has? If it has all the same good points (solid mechanics for both pve and pvp) what's going to stop it from growing the same detestable community? In fact, I think the Star Wars brand increases the likelihood that the game will be swarmed by little brats with midichlorians dripping from their noses. Just thinking about this is giving me flashbacks to Barrens chat.

Who's saying it won't go downhill as WoW did? I expect it'll be fun at launch and soon after, I'm not counting on more than that.

[Mizhara]

Pretty much what Borza said. The community problems and so on will come in time. However, what we -don't- know is whether or not the GM Corp and so on will be willing to lay the smackdown on the RP-PvP servers (if there is such a thing) to allow people some semblance of immersion. It would have been doable in WoW, but hasn't been bothered with. All we can do is sit back and see what happens in SWTOR in that regard.

SWTOR may very well turn out to have all the problems of WoW, certainly... and yet, even then... it's nowhere near WoW. It'd still be a very different game and it'd remain so until the Pandaren flies Tie Fighters and Jedis drop Totems.

[Kala]

It's also Rift in Space. Also, Warhammer Online in Space. It's LotR in Space. Hell, Eve's practically the only MMO out there that this game isn't.

Well...this. But there's a reason why Rift, Warhammer and LotR came out after WoW and share WoW's mechanics. It was a successful business model. It's the MMO that went 'big'. Subsequently, as far as mechanics are concerned, they are WoW clones. (Not referring to Rift, as haven't played it, mind you  ) And yes, WoW had refined the model based on earlier MMOs (Everquest? Seemed to me Everquest and Ultima Online were the two main early MMOs which completely different styles and EVE had a lot of inspiration from UO...I think it came up in a devblog once. TomB or someone.  The karma system feels very similar to the security system in some ways, with blue greys and reds but I digress...) but nowadays you don't really get anyone stepping away from that formula (linear play-style of carrot-on-a-stick quest and rewards, no losses from death, no real dynamic consequence to pvp, similar interface).  And if you do, they tend not to be that successful. (Tabula Rasa, f.ex)

Certainly LotR is WoW in middle earth regarding how the game is played. I don't think it's innaccurate or disparaging to say that. And in some ways it works, and in some ways it feels very shoe-horned in. (Like you can work the 'resurrection' stuff into WoW fairly easily, but in the Lord of the Rings books people weren't popping back from the dead all the time.  The only person who really did that was Gandalf.  So in the game you don't 'die' you merely suffer 'defeat' and lose morale and retreat from battle...) Though I think it does go beyond mechanics and there are social elements and similar vocabluary like 'end game' and 'raids'.   I don't remember the words 'raid dungeons' being used anywhere in the Lord of the Rings books.  It's just WoW has them, so the modern MMO (particularly fantasy I guess) feels it needs to have them also, to compete.  Even the classes are very similar in terms of a group dynamic - you have a tank, you have a healer, you have your dps and they all work in the same way.

And that's just expected as the norm now and has become synonymous with MMOS.  I've seen people go into EVE and be utterly perplexed when they're asking people what 'end game' is like and how you 'level up'. I'm not trying to be elitist here, just stating those things are accepted now as normal.  I don't think pre-WoW this was the case.

I don't hate WoW - well, that's not entirely true. I have a love/hate relationship with WoW. There's been long periods where I've played it avidly, enjoyed it - because it is very good at what it does - then got burn out at the repetitive nature of it and lack of...well...anything meaningful occuring. It's becomes a never ending quest for phat lewts ultimately. And then I tend to think fondly of games like Ultima Online and Eve that have offered more of a 'create your own adventure' scope, and have offered something different and innovative and introduced real loss.

It isn't WoW.  It's WoW's success really. It appears to make other game companies too cautious to do anything other than recreate the wheel (or place the wheel in a different setting). And the thing is - yeah, if it works, fine...but...We already have WoW and nobody is going to make a better one.  So I would rather game companies moved away from that in the future and, as with EVE, tried to create something completely different and innovative...and organic I guess, mechanics that develop with the gameworld, being suited to it, rather than having another game's mechanics shoe-horned in. 

[Hamish Grayson]

I wonder why this either comes as a surprise to someone this late in the development, or somehow seems worth mentioning.

Well... I hadn't been following it's development so I had no idea what to expect.   I mentioned it's likeness to WoW because that's the best reference I had to describe it and because I just assumed it would look and play like KOTOR.    Eve, WOW and champions online are te only MMOs I have experience with.    It is not like Eve, it is not like Champions and it is not like KOTOR.   

I had fun and will likely get an account just for the chance to kill Darth Baras.

[Hamish Grayson]

It'd still be a very different game and it'd remain so until the Pandaren flies Tie Fighters and Jedis drop Totems.

I already saw a jedi with a poop shield.   Anyway it was fun enough, and I like the story better than WoW but I'm still with Graelyn.   Same mechanics same game.   Slapping a cool Starwars story onto the WoW engine isn't more than a novelty for me.

I can't wait somebody can come up with an original story AND original mechanics that they can make work.