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Author Topic: Occupy Wallstreet  (Read 35787 times)

Techie Kanenald

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #210 on: 26 Nov 2011, 06:30 »

Thank you Kala...

Sometimes I'm reminded that it's important for humour to be injected into serious conversations, which you have done admirably.

Sadly, that's all I feel I have a right to comment on in this thread.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #211 on: 26 Nov 2011, 06:41 »

From how I see it, and according to some of the studies I'm doing (which will have a bias), the US is still living in the 1950s. You can have it all, you can have what you want, and you need not worry about anything. An example of that is Black Friday being marred by violence (again).

Stuff of having pisspoor financial management goes back to Marshall Aid. US send grants to European states from the government budget, and the money goes right back to American businesses instead. How does the government get that money back, when there is corporate tax at such a ridiculously low level? It's this whole "America, fuck yeah!" attitude where the US haven't lost a war (Vietnam War doesn't count ofc) and have too much pride and not enough of a reality check.  It's a good thing that the population are realizing this with Occupy Wall Street, but blame is not entirely on the 1% plutocrats, since the awsumAmerica attitude goes to such a grassroots level.

Greece is another example, to take the heat off of the US. You could inherit pensions. People didn't have to work because you could just inherit your parent's pensions until death. Moreover, nobody paid their taxes. Their tax collection services didn't ever both to do their job. So where does money to pay unlimited pensions, which is only slightly less than a full-time salary, come from? But it's this whole pride and arrogance which is bringing this whole thing about. The UK, France and Germany, all nations that have "been there, done that" with their glory days, have had sensible management, and while we're feeling the sting of things, it's nowhere near as bad as Ireland, Greece, Italy or Spain. It may just be that the US is a younger country, and has not gone through the trials and tribulations that Europe had to go through during World War Two.

Honestly, I don't know how you lot are going to get out of your $15 trillion debt. I love the US, and as an overseas-born citizen, I have a hidden partiality to wanting it to remain a great place to visit.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #212 on: 26 Nov 2011, 08:01 »

It's really not an insular issue or one related to age.

The UK is in debt like every other major power and doesn't show signs of repairing itself, either. Not to mention, the countries owed-to are second world.
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An important reminder for Placid RPers

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It's such a shame the same
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kalaratiri

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #213 on: 26 Nov 2011, 08:07 »

Thank you Kala...

Sometimes I'm reminded that it's important for humour to be injected into serious conversations, which you have done admirably.

Sadly, that's all I feel I have a right to comment on in this thread.

My pleasure :)
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #214 on: 26 Nov 2011, 08:57 »

There's no such thing as censorship or media bias. Oh no. Not at all.

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orange

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #215 on: 26 Nov 2011, 09:25 »

From how I see it, and according to some of the studies I'm doing (which will have a bias), the US is still living in the 1950s. You can have it all, you can have what you want, and you need not worry about anything. An example of that is Black Friday being marred by violence (again).

Stuff of having pisspoor financial management goes back to Marshall Aid. US send grants to European states from the government budget, and the money goes right back to American businesses instead. How does the government get that money back, when there is corporate tax at such a ridiculously low level? It's this whole "America, fuck yeah!" attitude where the US haven't lost a war (Vietnam War doesn't count ofc) and have too much pride and not enough of a reality check.  It's a good thing that the population are realizing this with Occupy Wall Street, but blame is not entirely on the 1% plutocrats, since the awsumAmerica attitude goes to such a grassroots level.

We may want to think we are still living in the 1950s, but we are not.  In the 1950s, the US was the industrial backbone of the world.  Europe was recovering from World War II and the US came out of it relatively unscathed.   If the Marshall Plan money had gone to European companies, the USG would not have seen any of the money back.  But something happened in the 1970s & 1980s.  The US opened up trade with the People's Republic of China (PRC) and began exporting its industrial base.   This reduces the cost of items, but also means that there are not jobs available for those who now have to go buy those items, horrible cycle and people wonder why I do not shop at WalMart.

Today, US corporations are taxed on their worldwide income (26 USC 11).  I do not know how long that law has been around, but it means that income earned by McDonalds in Moscow is taxed by the US Government.   State taxes also exist and range from 0-9.99%.  This means that the corporation's gross world-wide income is taxed 35%-45%.  Any foreign operations are taxed twice, once by the locals and then by the US government.  This leaves <55% of the gross income to pay employees (who will also be taxed), invest in possible growth, and do "3b!l" things that increase corporate income (which would increase total taxes paid).

Lastly, Britain, France, and Germany do not have it figured out.  As an example, France has laws in place to minimize the amount a citizen can work, to the point  in the US we consider them part-time jobs.  But in France immigrants are fine to work more than a citizen; *what wonderful equality and a brilliant show of humility!*

*sarcasm*

How do we get out of $15 Trillion in debt?

1) We stop defending Europe and fighting Europe's wars.  The rest of NATO can step up and pay 2% of their GDPs on their militaries.  The US, UK, and France are shouldering the majority of the alliance's expenses with Greece and Albania actually paying the required 2%.  Most of the alliance is not living up to their commitments and cannot provide material support for operations they political support (see Libya).

2) We place a tariff on goods and services made in countries where workers rights are not protected, like China.  This will be painful, but the goal is to break a cycle by which an American citizen loses jobs to foreign competitors without the same protections for workers.

3) We reform our tax code to eliminate loop holes used by the wealthy and corporations.   Maybe we raise taxes a little, bu first reform the tax code to figure out how much is actually being brought in.

4) We reduce the overall size of the Federal government, eliminating redundant agencies and pushing roles not assigned the Federal government in the Constitution to the States.

5) We pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #216 on: 26 Nov 2011, 17:03 »

Half the US' problems would go away if we stopped trying to help the rest of the world out.

Really don't see why it's not an option.
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An important reminder for Placid RPers

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It's such a shame the same
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #217 on: 27 Nov 2011, 04:10 »

Half the US' problems would go away if we stopped trying to help the rest of the world out.

Really don't see why it's not an option.

The US gets involved with the rest of the world because it needs resources from some of it. Also having people to sell stuff to can't hurt.

In other news:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2063351/Retired-police-chief-arrested-uniform-Occupy-Wall-Street-demo-branding-fellow-officers-obnoxious-arrogant-ignorant.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Has anyone on the American side of the pond seen this? Just for reference the Daily Mail is one of the UK's more right wing tabloids. Not quite at Fox News levels but getting there.
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Kind Regards,
Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Arkady Sadik

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #218 on: 27 Nov 2011, 04:14 »

Half the US' problems would go away if we stopped trying to help the rest of the world out.

That sounds very Amarrian! :o)
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #219 on: 27 Nov 2011, 04:36 »

In response to Arnulf's link, I'd like to quote a particular segment from it:

Quote from: Article
Speaking after the Day of Action, he said: ‘You should, by law, only use force to protect someone’s life or to protect them from being bodily injured.

'If you’re not protecting somebody’s life or protecting them from bodily injury, there’s no need to use force.

‘And the number one thing that they always have in their favor that they seldom use is negotiation - continue to talk, and talk and talk to people.

‘You have nothing to lose by that. This bullrush - what happened last night is totally uncalled for when they did not use negotiation long enough.’

This is one of the things I've been pointing at since the beginning of the violent suppression of peaceful non-violent protesters in this Occupy thread. Unnecessary and uncalled for violence sending pregnant women to the hospital, giving young students chemical burns in the face through excessive use of pepper spray, censorship of media, violence used against reporters and unwarranted police action in general is frightening to behold from outside your borders.

No matter how much a lot of us disliked the US long before these events, we had a certain amount of faith in the country's capability for at least dealing with domestic issues like a civilized country but this is starting to get very scary. These aren't riots. These aren't warzones or unstable regions with warlords and enemy combatants in civilian clothes. They are peaceful protests and they're being hammered down with scary amounts of force.

This leads to a question for the Americans amongst you: What are you doing about this? You as individuals most likely not directly connected to neither the Occupy movements or the Authorities who try to solve these things with force. Are you doing anything at all or are you just watching this from a distance? I'm curious.
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Techie Kanenald

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #220 on: 27 Nov 2011, 05:42 »

People might think I'm joking about this, but I'm not.

I'm looking at investment possibilities so I can afford a ranch out in like, South Dakota, and I'm also looking into home automated defenses.

I'm going to rename the street Mordor, and just watch as the world implodes.
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orange

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #221 on: 27 Nov 2011, 09:49 »

In response to Arnulf's link, I'd like to quote a particular segment from it:

Quote from: Article
Speaking after the Day of Action, he said: ‘You should, by law, only use force to protect someone’s life or to protect them from being bodily injured.

'If you’re not protecting somebody’s life or protecting them from bodily injury, there’s no need to use force.

‘And the number one thing that they always have in their favor that they seldom use is negotiation - continue to talk, and talk and talk to people.

‘You have nothing to lose by that. This bullrush - what happened last night is totally uncalled for when they did not use negotiation long enough.’

This is one of the things I've been pointing at since the beginning of the violent suppression of peaceful non-violent protesters in this Occupy thread. Unnecessary and uncalled for violence sending pregnant women to the hospital, giving young students chemical burns in the face through excessive use of pepper spray, censorship of media, violence used against reporters and unwarranted police action in general is frightening to behold from outside your borders.

No matter how much a lot of us disliked the US long before these events, we had a certain amount of faith in the country's capability for at least dealing with domestic issues like a civilized country but this is starting to get very scary. These aren't riots. These aren't warzones or unstable regions with warlords and enemy combatants in civilian clothes. They are peaceful protests and they're being hammered down with scary amounts of force.

This leads to a question for the Americans amongst you: What are you doing about this? You as individuals most likely not directly connected to neither the Occupy movements or the Authorities who try to solve these things with force. Are you doing anything at all or are you just watching this from a distance? I'm curious.
You have been pointing out instances of violent actions against the protest.   As you have said, for the most part, the authorities have tried to do their job.

I am not a citizen of New York City, Oakland, Seattle, or a student/parent of a student at UC Davis.  I have no input, other than through the Federal government, what those police officers can and cannot do.  Telling those locals what they can and cannot do goes against my political philosophy (libertarian).

I have already addressed some of your concerns previously.

As for censorship, the government does not actually censor CNN, Fox News, Time Magazine, etc.  The media outlets are businesses and choose what to follow and what will keep their audiences' attention (and thus them watching commercials).  They do not think following Occupy will keep their audience's attention.

As for what am I, personally, doing about this?  Sharing information with others and trying to put what is happening into some perspective.  I do not agree with the founders of Occupy and will not support them.  I am not a lawyer in NY, California, or Washington and cannot file suit against the police for overstepping their bounds.

So I am watching from a distance.

A question for you, why are you so interested in Occupy and not focusing on Syria or Egypt (the actual topic of the Time cover you provided)?   Why are you highlighting the failures of various local police throughout the US and branding it using inflammatory rhetoric?
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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #222 on: 27 Nov 2011, 10:41 »

I'm working, and quite thankful to have a decent job right now.
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #223 on: 27 Nov 2011, 10:52 »

Orange:

On the censorship note: I didn't make myself quite clear there. The censorship I was referring to was how the police forces were denying the media access to the areas during actions. The excuse was 'for your safety' which in turn became rather ridiculous when they also denied any press coverage from helicopters or safe areas. It's not censorship in the newsrooms, but censorship at the level of information gathering itself. There's been repeated protests and complaints lodged from various media entities against these things as they're allegedly unlawful. I'm not familiar with US law to the extent where I can say anything on that, but I'm sure they know what they're talking about there.

As for why I'm so interested in Occupy in the States, and more importantly the violence and force used by the police, well... It's quite simply a matter of self-preservation. The US is, like it or not, one of the major powers in the world. It's one of our military allies and the US dictates a lot of politics around the world. I have a very vested interest in the way the American politics and economy is progressing since it ultimately affects my country as well. Every step taken towards the US turning into a police state, allowing rampant abuse of power, allowing money to dictate politics, allowing excessive violence to be used without repercussion and allowing the police to deny media coverage of important events... they're all steps towards a world where the US becomes a problem instead of an ally to count on.

Egypt and Syria are also on my radar, of course, but they're not as dangerous to me and mine as the US is becoming.

I highlight these failures because each of them is a small step in a very dangerous direction.

All I can do is hope that it doesn't get worse, because if this becomes the norm then we're all going to get fucked before someone manages to put a stop to it all.

Kaleigh:

Sounds good. Hope you'll never be touched by this stuff, then. Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging any of you that aren't involved in any way. The majority of the people in any given nation fraught with crisis will focus on their own life, which is not a bad thing. My question is simply that, curiosity and maybe there'll be someone who does get involved somehow.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #224 on: 27 Nov 2011, 10:59 »

Everybody loves the perfect solution,
to bid the odds against the poorest possible substitution.
What you see is never what you're gonna get,
Everybody's playing, Revolution Roulette

:)
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