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Author Topic: Occupy Wallstreet  (Read 35848 times)

Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #120 on: 26 Oct 2011, 14:01 »

Considering the amount of video cameras you see the 'authoritah' waving around when they march lockstep and jackbooted on the protestors I find it extremely odd that there's not one documented assault on police officers. Well, not all that odd to be honest, but a bit astonishing perhaps. I did not expect to see that much police brutality, aggression and violence considering how well known it is that pretty much everything that happens there ends up on youtube.

Some sort of instinct should be going off in their heads, yelling "What you're doing now? Yeah, it's being documented up the fuckin' wazoo. Moderate yourself.".
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #121 on: 27 Oct 2011, 06:21 »

The same complaints the were originally used against OWS were used to justify this action.  Accusations that protestors were smoking pot, urinating and defecating openly in public, etc.

Funny how when foreign journalists show up to cover the story, they remark about said complaints and offer that, "I smell no such odors."

It is just classic smearing, ad hominem, poisoning-the-well type stuff.  These aren't substantive complaints, just an excuse and an attempt to turn public opinion against them and disregard the blatant abuse of the rights our government it supposed to be restricted from infringing upon.

We have video of police actions against protestors, I'm still waiting to see documented proof of a protestor attacking any officers (there is one of a rock being thrown through a patrol car window and I think that's shameful, but certainly not reason to act against the entire demonstration).

I remember seeing one video posted early in this thread where a protester starts swinging (or swinging back) at an officer. Bad move.

It wasn't a classical hook-swing, but rather more like... slapping down on the officer's shoulders and head while desperately trying to get away, to no avail.

EDIT: It wasn't posted in this thread. I checked. It must have been when I was browsing the tubes for more videos. Anyways, it's probably out of context anyways... but yeah.
« Last Edit: 27 Oct 2011, 06:30 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #122 on: 27 Oct 2011, 07:08 »

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Jon Engel

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #123 on: 27 Oct 2011, 22:10 »

It's funny. I remember talking to a recently graduated college guy at a tavern a few months back. Railed on and on about about the evils of unregulated capitalism, and evil financial institutions and corporations who get wealth and power at the expense of America.

Well, for one. Our economy is heavily regulated. Seriously, a list as long as the silk road could list everything congress does to regulate the economy or try to effect it in some way. Taxes, health codes, environmental codes, tax breaks to certain industries, bailing out certain industries, grants, loans, foreign aide, import bans, import taxes (tariffs) the list does go on folks.

Than, I remember saying to him. Congress spends the money, decides where it goes and the same two political parties have been in power since the 1800s. Which they happen to write the election laws that keep them in power too and fund and control the media that covers the candidates whome you think you have a choice in deciding over.

Lets get one thing straight people, if you think giving Government authority and more power over the economy is gonna protect us from a bad economy you are being childish and naive. If you think a Government whose membership is filled with people on the payrolls of people who care little about our rights is gonna safeguard your life liberty and property than you need to grow up.

Government is best when it governs the least.
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Graelyn

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #124 on: 28 Oct 2011, 00:35 »



The first time around didn't work either.

It won't work until they are scared.

The silly V masks don't do that. Neither did fat rednecks waving the flag.

TP and OWS are not working, nor will they.
« Last Edit: 28 Oct 2011, 00:37 by Graelyn »
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #125 on: 28 Oct 2011, 03:46 »

They are not 'silly V masks', they are Guy Fawkes masks.

Gunpowder plot and all that?
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Wanoah

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #126 on: 28 Oct 2011, 04:21 »

I saw this attempt at quantifying the situation that people are unhappy about:

Slideshow with graphs and shit

My summary is that it's all about the gap. I think most people realise that there has always been and will always be inequality: the problem is that the gap is so wide now. People can be contented when there's at least that false carrot that you could someday join the ranks of the wealthy if you work hard or get on TV or something.
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Syylara/Yaansu

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #127 on: 01 Nov 2011, 13:43 »

It's funny. I remember talking to a recently graduated college guy at a tavern a few months back. Railed on and on about about the evils of unregulated capitalism, and evil financial institutions and corporations who get wealth and power at the expense of America.

Well, for one. Our economy is heavily regulated. Seriously, a list as long as the silk road could list everything congress does to regulate the economy or try to effect it in some way. Taxes, health codes, environmental codes, tax breaks to certain industries, bailing out certain industries, grants, loans, foreign aide, import bans, import taxes (tariffs) the list does go on folks.

Regulations are routinely circumvented and repealed, often containing so many loop-holes as to be equivalent to not having any.  An example would be how many corporations that do business here in the U.S. (even touting themselves as "American" corporations), yet manage to not pay one cent in taxes.

Quote
Than, I remember saying to him. Congress spends the money, decides where it goes and the same two political parties have been in power since the 1800s. Which they happen to write the election laws that keep them in power too and fund and control the media that covers the candidates whome you think you have a choice in deciding over.

Lets get one thing straight people, if you think giving Government authority and more power over the economy is gonna protect us from a bad economy you are being childish and naive. If you think a Government whose membership is filled with people on the payrolls of people who care little about our rights is gonna safeguard your life liberty and property than you need to grow up.

That's the crux of the issue I hear the most often, though.  Our laws and regulations are written in corporate board rooms, handed to the lobbyists, who then dictate them to the lawmakers.  Just because the process is obfuscated through several layers of cronyism and corruption doesn't make the statement any less true.  I don't see that much demanding for more government control of business, I see demands that business not control the government.

Quote
Government is best when it governs the least.

I prefer to say government is best when it works for the people who grant it the authority to govern.  As it stands now, the social contract which is supposed to exist between the governing and the governed is in tatters.  It is a one-way street now of edicts and restrictions.  We have come to a place where the influence of money in the electoral and law-making process completely undermines the idea of "one person, one vote" because some people get "more" vote than others.  We pay lip service to the idea of "meritocracy," yet there are thousands upon thousands of people who want to work hard, who want to be a positive contributor to society, but are denied the means to do so.  These problems are structural and systemic, not a result of laziness or entitlement (not saying you suggested such, but it gets repeated as a talking point over and over again).  There are 6 job seekers for every open position in the country, even if every one of the people voicing their dissent right now went out to seek employment, 80% of them would still be in the same situation.  Not to mention, like my own current situation, I didn't work hard and take on debt to get educated so I could flip burgers and wash dishes, that's the exact thing I was trying to avoid!  If it comes down to putting food on my table, I suppose I may have to, but it doesn't mean I have to sit quietly and "be glad for what I have."  I'm sorry, maybe there's something wrong with me, but I am not so meek and repressed that I will have a celebratory attitude towards the idea of living in poverty for the rest of my life.

A great sign summed this notion up: "I didn't bust my ass for 4 years to graduate Magna Cum-Laude so I could serve you a cappuccino latte."
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kalaratiri

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #128 on: 03 Nov 2011, 14:55 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Te57eMCPMs Somewhat cynical, but interesting to think about. Also, :propaganda:
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Vikarion

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #129 on: 03 Nov 2011, 18:49 »

I can't say for certain that my experiences make me more or less capable of understanding the problems with the economy, nor have I conducted any studies on the subject. But what I am aware of in my particular industry (construction - one which involves many small businesses and is one of the hardest hit by the recession), is that the barriers to entry and the costs forced upon us by governmental control are tremendous.

To operate as, say, a carpenter in California, you have to have a contractor's license, a contractor's bond, workers compensation, you must make contributions to the EDD, and you have to do all of this in addition to normal employee payroll, withholding, and etc. Thus, the cost per employee is so high that a new hire may actually cost the employer twice what the employee physically takes home.

One can, of course, make a good argument for any one of these programs. EDD provides a safety net for employees. Workers comp. protects employees from going under financially due to injury. Contractor's bonds insure customers against fraud and shoddy workmanship, while the license stipulates a certain standard of ability.

The problem arises in the fact that all of these costs make hiring a licensed carpenter very expensive. In lieu of this, then, people will do the work themselves, let things go, or, very often, hire an unlicensed carpenter with a few buddies. The law-abiding and conscientious contractor then has to fire employees and simply work longer himself. Perhaps he may just go out of business altogether.

Although the Contractors Board makes a show of trying to crack down on illegal contractors, I would estimate that one half to two thirds of total residential construction work in California is performed by unlicensed workers. These illegal operators can and do perform satisfactory jobs, often work alone, and make far more profit (untaxed!) then a licensed and hard working contractor, and their numbers make enforcement of contracting laws a virtual impossibility.

My point is this: even if every individual regulation is good, at a certain point the weight of policies and regulations makes disregard for the law worthwhile. And while some people may choose to still be law abiding (as my company is), they are penalized for it.

But suppose that enforcement did work? Despite the astronomical cost of such policing, even were unlicensed contractors to be eliminated, we would likely not see much more work. Most people simply cannot afford the price of our services, which is dictated in large part by labor costs. Given the costs we must pay to employ even a laborer - much less a journeyman - there is a point beyond which doing a job actually costs the company money. So, every regulation (a term I am using loosely) placed upon us results in less business overall.

This might not be quite as bad as it is if those who authored such regulations had any conception of the realities of daily business operation in the market. As it is, we often receive plans or lists detailing prevailing wages (prevailing wage is what the government thinks people are being paid for a service in a particular area) according to our enlightened overlords. If a company were to operate using these wage standards, they would go bankrupt in less than a year. At my company, we like to read these lists in a sarcastic frame of mind while commenting on the idiocy of those who propose them.

How can a small business survive, then? Well, at my company, my partner and I work about 60 hours a week each, much of which is hard physical labor (when doing paperwork, we may hit 80 hours a week). I've gone as high as 96 hours in a week, with less to show for it then most.

This isn't a political or economic rant. I'm coming at this from an informal, anecdotal perspective. But I must say that it seems difficult for me to place blame for these conditions upon free markets - we don't operate in one - or even big companies. If we didn't have very cooperative and interested companies supplying us products, samples of new items, and even free clothing, things would be even more difficult. I am well aware that not every company is like that, but the ones that screw us over are invariably the ones the government requires us to deal with.

Those who seem to truly have no connection with reality or sympathy with our efforts are those ensconced in the halls of power, as it were. Rules seem to be made without any consideration of the effects they will have or the additional burden they will impose. Indeed, the attitude prevailing seems to be that we ought to be grateful for being allowed to exist at all. In many ways, the perception is growing both amongst the management and employees of my company that the rules have been carefully constructed to force us to run as fast as we can to stay in the same place.

This sense of futility, and of being exploited, tends to produce a deep and bitter anger. The sense, the feeling, is not that the system does not work, but that it has become a malevolent system, designed to consume us. It is that the welfare state has become adjusted to provide for the welfare of those who run it or collude with those administrators - and all the while, those of us trying to attain to a certain stability, a bit of financial security, are to be forever enticed by it, but forever denied.

This sort of mood will not lead to good things. But the reaction I have seen, so far, seems to either have been an agitation against social liberalism (as if banning gay marriage will make my life better), useless agonizing over how much Warren Buffet makes (even if we confiscated everything the "super-rich" earn, my life would be not a whit improved) or outright condemnation of people like me, people who are trying to make money by earning it.

I'm a pessimist. I don't think that things are going to improve for those of us who work or want to work. I think the solipsistic radicals will continue to smash windows, the Republicans will continue to tout fundamentalism and weird tax schemes (selected to be so weird they will never be implemented), and the Democrats will continue implement more and more burdensome regulations while demanding higher taxes on those who invest or earn. In short, none of those who are in a position to fix real problems wish those real problems to be fixed. The problems grant them power, job security, and something with which to demonize their opponents.

As for me, at least the long hours give me time to listen to Dostoyevsky, Dawkins, Wodehouse, and others on my iPod.
« Last Edit: 05 Nov 2011, 01:51 by Vikarion »
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Seriphyn

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #130 on: 03 Nov 2011, 19:03 »

Bailing out the banks is basically socialist and acknowledging capitalism isn't currently working.

Solution is naturally the uprooting of the current form of society and establishing a new one. Come on, Russia and China, WW3! Let's go!
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orange

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #131 on: 03 Nov 2011, 19:47 »

Bailing out the banks is basically socialist and acknowledging capitalism isn't currently working.
Incorrect assumption to make.  While I agree bailing out banks is essentially a socialist action, it does not mean that capitalism is not working.  It works very well and is why secondary (black & gray) markets come to exist.

Bailing out the banks was governments favoring security over freedom (or status quo over change).  Freedom includes the freedom to fail.  Individuals, small businesses, companies, and corporations would have all potentially lost something.  Some would bounce back, others would not.  Instead, governments chose the status quo and security over change and freedom, but so do most people.

Solution is naturally the uprooting of the current form of society and establishing a new one. Come on, Russia and China, WW3! Let's go!
Major destructive war between major powers will not result in the type of change most people in the western world desire.

The world's economy is incredibly intertwined and no major power will be able to sustain large scale physical warfare, nor do they desire it.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #132 on: 03 Nov 2011, 20:05 »

Well, dex, the intent of that theoritical world war would be to reorganize the international system away from what you have just described.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #133 on: 03 Nov 2011, 20:24 »

Actually, WWIII would be an excellent way to get out of this.

Most commodities stay around, and their solid occupation of space keeps them from being as lucrative as they could be. There gets to be a point where there's simply too much money and nothing to spend it on.

Ammunition and weapons have the benefit of being high-demand, one time use items. Build a thousand bombs, the builder gets profits, the factory workers get paid, and tomorrow we need another thousand.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #134 on: 03 Nov 2011, 20:33 »

Dig a canal with a spoon, etc. Break a window, pay for new window, everyone profits! except for the person who has to replace his windows. . .
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