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Author Topic: Occupy Wallstreet  (Read 35854 times)

Ulphus

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #105 on: 17 Oct 2011, 22:51 »

I think developing a system of taxation which punishes success is a bad idea (becoming a millionaire).  I think it will reduce the drive of many individuals and start-ups.  10.5 million US households (2.59 people) are millionaires or ~8.9% of Americans.

One of the problems that some people complain about in NZ is that in general, our entrepreneurs want to make enough money to pay off their house, buy a bach (cheap holiday home) a car and a boat, and then they don't want to do 60 hour weeks any more. Whereas I personally don't think that's actually a problem.

And what do you mean by "punishing success" exactly. Asking rich people to pay more tax than they currently do? I'm not sure why that counts as punishment. If, as that hedge fund manager Buffet said, he pays less tax than his secretary, then the tax system is already broken, and could use some amendments.

If I'm earning 10,000 a year and need 9,900 to pay for food, accomodation, clothes etc, and I double my income to 20k, and my fixed costs (understandably) rise up to 15,000 because I want to live somewhere slightly nicer and eat better food, My discretionary money to spend is still 50 times more. If my income rises to 100,000 per year, and my fixed costs rise to 50,000, then I'm 500 times better off. This is why rich people can afford a bit more tax and still be better off than someone earning a lot less than them.

(And those numbers are all (approximately) numbers that I've had in my annual paycheck, if you were wondering.)

I think it is a bad idea to prosecute corporate executives if they did not actually break any laws.   They may have built a house of cards, but I am unsure if any actual laws were broken.  The precedent set is scary.

Off the top of my head:
There's been numerous examples of banks or their representatives lying in court; Banks weren't following state laws about transferral of mortgage deeds on houses, and when they were called on it, they employed people to sign affidavits claiming that the paperwork was lost, and that the person making the affidavit had done a thorough search, and that they were qualified to state that the bank actually owned the mortgage deed (purgery is the technical term I think);
Banks were caught foreclosing on houses that were actually paid off;
Banks were lying to their investors about the quality of the investments they were selling to them (They would package up a thousand mortgages, and check 100 of them to see if they actually qualified according to their published rules. When 50 of the ones they checked failed, they discarded just those 50, and said that the mortages were not 50% compliant, but 95% compliant with the rules.)
Various investment banks have been doing very dodgy things with the regulation officials involving offering them well paid jobs after their term as investigator, as long as they don't get too enthusiastic about prosecuting the banks in the meantime...

How many have been arrested?

That's stuff I've picked up from a distance without reading the US papers every day.

I think it is a bad idea for the US government to manage the economy.  I am ok with the government regulating activities between member states (interstate commerce) and with other country-states (export/import).  Managing and regulating are different things in my opinion.

Who would you like to manage the economy? HSBC? There are too many ways to game the system (or suborn the regulators) to rely on regulation alone. Also, every choice the government makes about spending (or not spending) money affects the economy either locally or across the country (otherwise pork-barrel politics wouldn't exist). Would you prefer them to have a plan about what affect they want to have happen? Or to just do things at random? I mean, yeah, they currently look like they do stuff at random, but wouldn't it be better if they had a plan?

Governments should exist to make the lives of the people in that polity better than it would be otherwise. Not just the rich people, but everyone!

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orange

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #106 on: 18 Oct 2011, 00:19 »

Quote from: Syylara/Yaansu
The problem I have with all this is how skewed the dialogue is to begin with.  This talk about 'taxing the job creators', 'punishing success', and generally anything related to percents, be it 99 or 1, is all just class warfare rhetoric.


destroy the establishment and build something new that might be less broken for a while.

THIS!

What is your position on the ownership of weapons?

What do you think the Occupy Movement's position is on the US's 2nd Amendment?
Destroy does not mean violently overthrow.  We are absolutely against violence as a political tool.  Given the nature of the movement right now, I try to refrain from interjecting my view as theirs, so most things are broad.  In the overall, I think the mood is "The Constitution is what gives us the right to even have this discussion, we are not about changing that."

However, we aren't showing up to our rallies with fully automatic weapons and "tree of liberty/blood of tyrants" t-shirts, either.
It was not a question to you Syylara, it was to those advocating destruction of the system.

In my view, the 2nd Amendment's purpose is to ensure the people/States have the right/ability to overthrow a tyrannical government.  Since ~1865, these rights have been eroded by various means.

I think developing a system of taxation which punishes success is a bad idea (becoming a millionaire).  I think it will reduce the drive of many individuals and start-ups.  10.5 million US households (2.59 people) are millionaires or ~8.9% of Americans.

One of the problems that some people complain about in NZ is that in general, our entrepreneurs want to make enough money to pay off their house, buy a bach (cheap holiday home) a car and a boat, and then they don't want to do 60 hour weeks any more. Whereas I personally don't think that's actually a problem.

And what do you mean by "punishing success" exactly. Asking rich people to pay more tax than they currently do? I'm not sure why that counts as punishment. If, as that hedge fund manager Buffet said, he pays less tax than his secretary, then the tax system is already broken, and could use some amendments.

If I'm earning 10,000 a year and need 9,900 to pay for food, accomodation, clothes etc, and I double my income to 20k, and my fixed costs (understandably) rise up to 15,000 because I want to live somewhere slightly nicer and eat better food, My discretionary money to spend is still 50 times more. If my income rises to 100,000 per year, and my fixed costs rise to 50,000, then I'm 500 times better off. This is why rich people can afford a bit more tax and still be better off than someone earning a lot less than them.

(And those numbers are all (approximately) numbers that I've had in my annual paycheck, if you were wondering.)

Quote from: orange
I did not say keep the tax system as is.  I said "I think developing a system of taxation which punishes success is a bad idea (becoming a millionaire)."

This does not mean, "do not close the loop-holes that exist" or "do not institute a luxury tax."

Choices like  "pop(ping) by Dubai in the Learjet for a cup of coffee with gold in it" could carry with them some high taxes outside of taxing the actual income of the person.  Owning a Ferrari or Learjet can have taxes in it that the majority never see because they are buying VWs, Fords, and Toyotas or a plane ticket on United or British Airways.

Taxing the person who chooses to maintain a used-Toyota for decades, literally wears out the products they buy, works to allow their children to do whatever they want to do and makes it into the "millionaire" club because they worked at it seems like a bad idea to me.  Are they successful?  Yes!  Could a tax system based on just net-wealth/savings punish them for their hard work?  Yes!

I am suggesting the solution is not "Your net-worth is in excess of 1-million USD, therefore you should be taxed more than the guy whose net worth is only 10K USD."

I am suggesting that perhaps activities, like maintaining a license on a twin-engine aircraft and buying the fuel for the jet, could carry taxes that unless you take part in them, you do not have to worry about.
I think it is a bad idea to prosecute corporate executives if they did not actually break any laws.   They may have built a house of cards, but I am unsure if any actual laws were broken.  The precedent set is scary.

Off the top of my head:
There's been numerous examples of banks or their representatives lying in court; Banks weren't following state laws about transferral of mortgage deeds on houses, and when they were called on it, they employed people to sign affidavits claiming that the paperwork was lost, and that the person making the affidavit had done a thorough search, and that they were qualified to state that the bank actually owned the mortgage deed (purgery is the technical term I think);
Banks were caught foreclosing on houses that were actually paid off;
Banks were lying to their investors about the quality of the investments they were selling to them (They would package up a thousand mortgages, and check 100 of them to see if they actually qualified according to their published rules. When 50 of the ones they checked failed, they discarded just those 50, and said that the mortages were not 50% compliant, but 95% compliant with the rules.)
Various investment banks have been doing very dodgy things with the regulation officials involving offering them well paid jobs after their term as investigator, as long as they don't get too enthusiastic about prosecuting the banks in the meantime...

How many have been arrested?

That's stuff I've picked up from a distance without reading the US papers every day.
I do not know how many have been arrested, I assume it was rhetorical and the answer is 0.  If there were crimes committed, then those committing the crimes should be arrested and tried in court.   The first thing here is for the state to decide to pursue the case.  Perhaps that is a desired outcome of the protest?

My point is that a crime must have been committed.

Just as it is wrong for police to pepper spray a cooperative protester; it is wrong to arrest someone who did not commit a crime.
I think it is a bad idea for the US government to manage the economy.  I am ok with the government regulating activities between member states (interstate commerce) and with other country-states (export/import).  Managing and regulating are different things in my opinion.

Who would you like to manage the economy? HSBC? There are too many ways to game the system (or suborn the regulators) to rely on regulation alone. Also, every choice the government makes about spending (or not spending) money affects the economy either locally or across the country (otherwise pork-barrel politics wouldn't exist). Would you prefer them to have a plan about what affect they want to have happen? Or to just do things at random? I mean, yeah, they currently look like they do stuff at random, but wouldn't it be better if they had a plan?
I do not think an economy the size of the United States can be managed or even well regulated.   I did not say the Federal central government should regulate everything, in fact I gave very specific things the Federal government should regulate - Interstate Commerce and Imports/Exports.

I recognize that government spending impacts the economy.  I think that national committees of politicians are ill-equipped to understand the implications of how they spend (including pork-barrel projects) money.  I think the Federal government should not be seen as having the ability to impact the national economy, beyond a few very select industries.

The construction of roads/bridges/etc in a particular state is not a national need.  The continued maintenance of the GPS constellation of satellites is a national (global) need.

The acquisition of new Fire Trucks for a particular district is not a national need.  A blue water Navy may not be a national need (something very much debated when the first Frigates were purchased by the US Govt).  A strategic Air Force may not be a national need (something not nearly as well debated by Congress as the foundation of the Navy).

I think politicians planning the purchasing for the needs of the United States leads to some of the worst investments of tax payer funds.

Governments should exist to make the lives of the people in that polity better than it would be otherwise. Not just the rich people, but everyone!

The US Federal Government exist to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

Article 1 of the Constitution goes on to provide a list of those powers granted the Congress.

The 10th Amendment expressly states "(t)he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #107 on: 18 Oct 2011, 12:13 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MxupmU4cJOE#!

Looks like Sansha Kuvakei has infiltrated an Occupy movement. Why are they going on in drone-echoes?
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #108 on: 18 Oct 2011, 13:08 »

Human Microphone. When the protestors near Wall Street were banned from using any loudspeaker kind of setup (including bullhorns and such) they had to improvise. It became the 'human microphone' where the speaker paused for all those who DID hear it to repeat it so everyone could hear it. It's quite ingenious but I can't figure out why it's used when she's got a freakin' bullhorn. Maybe it's symbolic or something.

I hear it did quite help keep cohesion and unity there, as everyone said what the speakers said.
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Victoria Stecker

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #109 on: 18 Oct 2011, 13:09 »

I can't view that video at work :( but what I recall seeing was that that was their way of dealing with the lack of lowspeakers. They weren't permitted to use them, which meant that people given speaches could only be heard by people within earshot. The solution was to have the people within earshot repeat verbatim what the speaker said, so that the couple dozen voices would carry a lot farther than the individual speaker could manage on their own.

The end result seems a little strange, but I thought it was an excellent way to deal with being denied traditional amplification.

It's entirely possbile that that's not what's going on in that video, i'm just making a semi-educated guess because I can't see it.

EDIT: sniped by miz
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #110 on: 18 Oct 2011, 17:47 »

Human Microphone. When the protestors near Wall Street were banned from using any loudspeaker kind of setup (including bullhorns and such) they had to improvise. It became the 'human microphone' where the speaker paused for all those who DID hear it to repeat it so everyone could hear it. It's quite ingenious but I can't figure out why it's used when she's got a freakin' bullhorn. Maybe it's symbolic or something.

I hear it did quite help keep cohesion and unity there, as everyone said what the speakers said.

Yes, but at the same time, anyone can take the stage.

This becomes an issue when both internationally recognized nazi and communist parties have sided with the Wall Street protests. If people of the same persuasion 'take control' of the human microphone, as they're very well entitled to, then that'd be unfortunate, wouldn't it?
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Ulphus

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #111 on: 18 Oct 2011, 19:40 »

Yes, but at the same time, anyone can take the stage.

So have some Tea Party people. That doesn't automatically make it a problem.

This becomes an issue when both internationally recognized nazi and communist parties have sided with the Wall Street protests. If people of the same persuasion 'take control' of the human microphone, as they're very well entitled to, then that'd be unfortunate, wouldn't it?

Why? As someone once said, the solution to speech you don't like is not to restrict speech, it's to have more speech. Say why you think their speech is bad. Also, the human microphone really relies on the buy-in of the relayers; if what you're saying doesn't convince them, then they'll stop relaying it. That's why I don't think it's a particular problem.

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Z.Sinraali

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #112 on: 18 Oct 2011, 19:49 »

Setting aside the guilt-by-association rhetoric, not just anyone can jump up and start talking. You remember that brief and overwrought kerfuffle over the fact that John Lewis didn't get to speak? Why do you think that any random nazi could 'take control'?  There's no voodoo going on here, people repeat it because they think it's generally useful. If a crazy managed to get a slot on the agenda, and started going off on the menace of the jews, gypsies, and homosexuals, what do you think would happen? The magical mind control of the human mic fires up the pogrom bongs and they all start kristallnachting?
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Invelious

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #113 on: 19 Oct 2011, 10:56 »

My friend found this, I thought it was relevant to the discussion, unforunately I cannot access the original posting. But this is what he pulled from New Scientist today.



"From New Scientist today:

 AS PROTESTS against financial power sweep the world this week, science may have confirmed the protesters' worst fears. An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy.

The study's assumptions have attracted some criticism, but complex systems analysts contacted by New Scientist say it is a unique effort to untangle control in the global economy. Pushing the analysis further, they say, could help to identify ways of making global capitalism more stable.

The idea that a few bankers control a large chunk of the global economy might not seem like news to New York's Occupy Wall Street movement and protesters elsewhere. But the study, by a trio of complex systems theorists at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, is the first to go beyond ideology to empirically identify such a network of power. It combines the mathematics long used to model natural systems with comprehensive corporate data to map ownership among the world's transnational corporations (TNCs).

"Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it's conspiracy theories or free-market," says James Glattfelder. "Our analysis is reality-based."

Previous studies have found that a few TNCs own large chunks of the world's economy, but they included only a limited number of companies and omitted indirect ownerships, so could not say how this affected the global economy - whether it made it more or less stable, for instance.

The Zurich team can. From Orbis 2007, a database listing 37 million companies and investors worldwide, they pulled out all 43,060 TNCs and the share ownerships linking them. Then they constructed a model of which companies controlled others through shareholding networks, coupled with each company's operating revenues, to map the structure of economic power.

The work, to be published in PloS One, revealed a core of 1318 companies with interlocking ownerships (see image). Each of the 1318 had ties to two or more other companies, and on average they were connected to 20. What's more, although they represented 20 per cent of global operating revenues, the 1318 appeared to collectively own through their shares the majority of the world's large blue chip and manufacturing firms - the "real" economy - representing a further 60 per cent of global revenues.

When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. "In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network," says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.

John Driffill of the University of London, a macroeconomics expert, says the value of the analysis is not just to see if a small number of people controls the global economy, but rather its insights into economic stability.

Concentration of power is not good or bad in itself, says the Zurich team, but the core's tight interconnections could be. As the world learned in 2008, such networks are unstable. "If one [company] suffers distress," says Glattfelder, "this propagates."

"It's disconcerting to see how connected things really are," agrees George Sugihara of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California, a complex systems expert who has advised Deutsche Bank.

Yaneer Bar-Yam, head of the New England Complex Systems Institute (NECSI), warns that the analysis assumes ownership equates to control, which is not always true. Most company shares are held by fund managers who may or may not control what the companies they part-own actually do. The impact of this on the system's behaviour, he says, requires more analysis.

Crucially, by identifying the architecture of global economic power, the analysis could help make it more stable. By finding the vulnerable aspects of the system, economists can suggest measures to prevent future collapses spreading through the entire economy. Glattfelder says we may need global anti-trust rules, which now exist only at national level, to limit over-connection among TNCs. Bar-Yam says the analysis suggests one possible solution: firms should be taxed for excess interconnectivity to discourage this risk.

One thing won't chime with some of the protesters' claims: the super-entity is unlikely to be the intentional result of a conspiracy to rule the world. "Such structures are common in nature," says Sugihara.

Newcomers to any network connect preferentially to highly connected members. TNCs buy shares in each other for business reasons, not for world domination. If connectedness clusters, so does wealth, says Dan Braha of NECSI: in similar models, money flows towards the most highly connected members. The Zurich study, says Sugihara, "is strong evidence that simple rules governing TNCs give rise spontaneously to highly connected groups". Or as Braha puts it: "The Occupy Wall Street claim that 1 per cent of people have most of the wealth reflects a logical phase of the self-organising economy."

So, the super-entity may not result from conspiracy. The real question, says the Zurich team, is whether it can exert concerted political power. Driffill feels 147 is too many to sustain collusion. Braha suspects they will compete in the market but act together on common interests. Resisting changes to the network structure may be one such common interest."
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Invelious

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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #115 on: 21 Oct 2011, 11:58 »

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Invelious

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #116 on: 21 Oct 2011, 13:50 »

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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #117 on: 21 Oct 2011, 15:56 »

Quote
The Organizers vs. the Organized in Zuccotti Park

    10/20/11 at 5:38 PM
    Comment

It began, as it so often does, with a drum circle.

It began, as it so often does, with a drum circle.Photo: Andrew Burton/AP

All occupiers are equal — but some occupiers are more equal than others. In wind-whipped Zuccotti Park, new divisions and hierarchies are threatening to upend Occupy Wall Street and its leaderless collective.

As the protest has grown, some of the occupiers have spontaneously taken charge on projects large and small. But many of the people in Zuccotti Park aren't taking direction well, leading to a tense Thursday of political disagreements, the occasional shouting match, and at least one fistfight.

It began, as it so often does, with a drum circle. The ten-hour groove marathons weren’t sitting well with the neighborhood’s community board, the ironically situated High School of Economics and Finance that sits on the corner of Zuccotti Park, or many of the sleep-deprived protesters.

“[The high school] couldn’t teach,” explained Josh Nelson, a 27-year-old occupier from Nebraska. “And we’ve had issues with the drummers too. They drum incessantly all day, and really loud.” Facilitators spearheaded a General Assembly proposal to limit the drumming to two hours a day. “The drumming is a major issue which has the potential to get us kicked out," said Lauren Digion, a leader on the sanitation working group.

But the drums were fun. They brought in publicity and money. Many non-facilitators were infuriated by the decision and claimed that it had been forced through the General Assembly.

“They’re imposing a structure on the natural flow of music," said Seth Harper, an 18-year-old from Georgia. “The GA decided to do it ... they suppressed people’s opinions. I wanted to do introduce a different proposal, but a big black organizer chick with an Afro said I couldn’t.”

To Shane Engelerdt, a 19-year-old from Jersey City and self-described former “head drummer,” this amounted to a Jacobinic betrayal. “They are becoming the government we’re trying to protest," he said. "They didn’t even give the drummers a say ... Drumming is the heartbeat of this movement. Look around: This is dead, you need a pulse to keep something alive.”

The drummers claim that the finance working group even levied a percussion tax of sorts, taking up to half of the $150-300 a day that the drum circle was receiving in tips. “Now they have over $500,000 from all sorts of places,” said Engelerdt. “We’re like, what’s going on here? They’re like the banks we’re protesting."

All belongings and money in the park are supposed to be held in common, but property rights reared their capitalistic head when facilitators went to clean up the park, which was looking more like a shantytown than usual after several days of wind and rain. The local community board was due to send in an inspector, so the facilitators and cleaners started moving tarps, bags, and personal belongings into a big pile in order to clean the park.

But some refused to budge. A bearded man began to gather up a tarp and an occupier emerged from beneath, screaming: “You’re going to break my fucking tent, get that shit off!” Near the front of the park, two men in hoodies staged a meta-sit-in, fearful that their belongings would be lost or appropriated.

Daniel Zetah, a 35-year-old lead facilitator from Minnesota, mounted a bench. “We need to clear this out. There are a bunch of kids coming to stay here.” One of the hoodied men fought back: “I’m not giving up my space for fucking kids. They have parents and homes. My parents are dead. This is my space.”

Other organizers were more blunt. “If you don’t want to be part of this group, then you can just leave,” yelled a facilitator in a button-down shirt, “Every week we clean our house.” Seth Harper, the pro-drummer proletarian, chimed in on the side of the sitters. “We disagree on how we should clean it. A lot of us disagree with the pile.” Zetah, tall and imposing with a fiery red beard, closed debate with a sigh. “We’re all big boys and girls. Let’s do this.” As he told me afterwards, “A lot of people are like spoiled children." The cure? A cold snap. “Personally, I cannot wait for winter. It will clear out these people who aren’t here for the right reasons. Bring on the snow. The real revolutionaries will stay in -50 degrees.”

“The sunshine protestors will leave,” said “Zonkers,” a 20-year-old cleaner and longtime occupier from Tennessee. (He asked that his name not be used due to a felony marijuana conviction.) “The people who remain are the people who care. You get a lot of crust punks, silly kids, people who want to panhandle ... It disgusts me. These people are here for a block party.”

Another argument broke out next to the pile of appropriated belongings, growing taller by the minute. A man named Sage Roberts desperately rifled through the pile, looking for a sleeping bag. “They’ve taken my stuff,” he muttered. Lauren Digion, the sanitation group leader, broke in: “This isn’t your stuff. You got all this stuff from comfort [the working group]. It belongs to comfort.”

And as I spoke to Michael Glaser, a 26-year-old Chicagoan helping lead winter preparation efforts, a physical fight broke out between a cleaner and a camper just feet from us.

“When cleanups happen, people get mad,” Glaser said. “This is its own city. Within every city there are people who freeload, who make people’s lives miserable. We just deal with it. We can’t kick them out.”

In response to dissatisfaction with the consensus General Assembly, many facilitators have adopted a new “spokescouncil” model, which allows each working group to act independently without securing the will of the collective. “This streamlines it,” argued Zonkers. “The GA is unwieldy, cumbersome, and redundant."

From today’s battles, it’s not yet clear who will win the day: the organizers or the organized. But the month-long protest has clearly grown and evolved to a point where a truly leaderless movement will risk eviction — or, worse, insurrection.

As the communal sleeping bag argument between Lauren Digion and Sage Roberts threatened to get out of hand, a facilitator in a red hat walked by, brow furrowed. “Remember? You’re not allowed to do any more interviews,” he said to Digion. She nodded and went back to work. But when Roberts shouted, “Don’t tell me what to do!” Digion couldn't hold back.

“Someone has to be told what to do," she said. "Someone needs to give orders. There’s no sense of order in this fucking place.”
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #118 on: 26 Oct 2011, 00:19 »

To perhaps breath some life into this thread, an update.

The Occupy Oakland protestors have been expelled by riot police from their park-site. At the moment, the protestors are counterattacking, using bottles and other projectiles against the police.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/top-stories/ci_19188125?source=pkg
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Syylara/Yaansu

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #119 on: 26 Oct 2011, 13:52 »

The same complaints the were originally used against OWS were used to justify this action.  Accusations that protestors were smoking pot, urinating and defecating openly in public, etc.

Funny how when foreign journalists show up to cover the story, they remark about said complaints and offer that, "I smell no such odors."

It is just classic smearing, ad hominem, poisoning-the-well type stuff.  These aren't substantive complaints, just an excuse and an attempt to turn public opinion against them and disregard the blatant abuse of the rights our government it supposed to be restricted from infringing upon.

We have video of police actions against protestors, I'm still waiting to see documented proof of a protestor attacking any officers (there is one of a rock being thrown through a patrol car window and I think that's shameful, but certainly not reason to act against the entire demonstration).
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