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[lallara zhuul]

“This will not do.” The emperor said, his voice still strong despite his frail body. “I will not permit any military forces in space to be built or operated by anyone but the imperial navy. Allowing provincial governors to establish their own armed forces sets a very dangerous precedence that can only lead to future troubles.”

There should not be any armed forces in space outside of Imperial Naval forces...

Which means that there are no means to do the actual raiding by the Amarrian businessmen.

They need a middle man that does the actual raiding for ISK, because of the Imperial laws.

Which also kind of gimps the whole capsuleer thing, now that you think of it...

Yay, another PF discrepancy.

[Gottii]

“This will not do.” The emperor said, his voice still strong despite his frail body. “I will not permit any military forces in space to be built or operated by anyone but the imperial navy. Allowing provincial governors to establish their own armed forces sets a very dangerous precedence that can only lead to future troubles.”

There should not be any armed forces in space outside of Imperial Naval forces...

Which means that there are no means to do the actual raiding by the Amarrian businessmen.

They need a middle man that does the actual raiding for ISK, because of the Imperial laws.

Which also kind of gimps the whole capsuleer thing, now that you think of it...

Yay, another PF discrepancy.

Yeah, this PF discrepancy is pretty stark, considering there is a freaking trailer about House Kador's personal fleet attacking the Gallente. 

Meh

[Lyn Farel]

Why would a free person of the Empire marry a slave?

Would you marry your pet dog?

Who said such a thing ?

[lallara zhuul]

<snip>
 But it is also to compensate the fact that a lot of slaves are very probably getting integrated in the amarr society, some of them being freed, married to amarr citizens, etc. <snip>

You.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

You know those liberal holders, what a bunch of troublemakers. *shakes a fist*

I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.

Maybe its just me, but the PF is intended as background material, exact details isn't a vital element. The fact that she DID release slaves can show there are some changes in government and that the liberal, progressive factions within the government are having some influence on it. I think that's far more important than how many slaves go free, cause it's sure not going to satisfy any of the anti-slavery crowd, who still see the institution as barbaric.

Also, governments say things all the time they don't do while doing it anyway under the radar. The question I would be asking is what economic impact slavery has on the government, and are MORE slaves going to improve that? Or are they just a liability? That's not to say that this is the only consideration, but money usually does the talking in society.

[Mithfindel]

As a note to Lallara about the Kiss of the Soul fragment, "military forces" is not the same as "armed forces". Real life comparisons suck, but because someone owns a hunting rifle or a pistol doesn't mean he's a soldier. We also do know (for example from the epic arc) that some noblemen fly and duel in spaceships. These ships also appear on other chronicles (Godflesh for example has armed ships flown by nobles). Therefore, the natural workaround against the law forbidding non-Imperial fleets in Empire is that theoretically every captain owns his own ship, which may or may not carry weapons. This does limit spaceship ownership/captainship somewhat, and in case someone starts testing the limits, I would assume that the MIO and possibly even the Imperial Navy would get involved rather fast.

[Arkady Sadik]

I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.

Oh, exact numbers aren't important (which is why I used the word "rough" in the OP, say). But rough proportions would be.

Basically, a discussion on IGS ended up at the point where one side claimed that the Empire more or less released all slaves except for some criminals, and the other claimed that there are still a lot of Minmatar enslaved.

And that discussion ends up as "no u!", because both sides have PF backing for their stance.

[Merdaneth]

I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.

There is a world of difference between Jamyl's edict freeing 98% of the slaves, or freeing 3% of the slaves obviously. If 98% were freed, basically most of the anti-slave war has been fought, the casus belli is much weakened since the step to total liberation has been largely set.

I don't think many players can dismiss a 98% freeing rate as just a 'self-serving political gesture', for example.

[Merdaneth]

9th Generation

Jamyl "emancipated" all slaves of the 9th generation and older (and even all higher-educated ones, regardless of generation - a somewhat lesser-known detail). It is completely unclear what kind of proportion this would be.

Obviously somebody made an oops (or several).

Honestly, I always found the timescales very hard to imagine. I would be much happier if the original (and major enslaving) happened about 8 generations ago, and the rebellion 1-2 generations. 30+ generations under a culture that actively tries to eradicate your culture, and then still be organized and cultural enough to rebel in organized fashion and restore your culture? Not very likely at all. If the original enslavement was 8 generations ago, the numbers would be much better too.

So, IC I have to consider one of the data points mentioned by Arkady as incorrect

- Invasion happened 30 generations ago
- A third of the Minmatar population is still enslaved (prior to 9th generation release)
- The Minmatar are the most populous
- 9th generation+ slaves number 700-800 million

Until now I'm going with the last one, perhaps it should have mentioned 700-800 billion? However, as stated above, I would prefer the invasion to be a shorter time ago instead, that would make the most sense to me.

Obviously, the view one takes of PF has a major impact on one's RP if one does the slavery angle. I think the silent consensus among the players seems to be that only a small portion (<10%) of the slaves have been freed, but that's largely because that would make the most sense story-wise. I don't know if many have stopped and thought about what the logical proportion (99%+) would be, because the logical proportion would sorta destroy/overturn a lot of the slavery storyline.

[Vincent Pryce]

So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.

While the emancipation was perceived as an olive branch it was probably also a very demoralizing attack veiled in good intentions. "O RLY?" I hear you say. I say "YA RLY" and here's why;

The emancipation nearly crushed the Republic's resources and infrastructure - putting a serious strain on the Republic resulting in riots, disorderly conduct, violence, religious persecution and probably a lot of disillusioned freedom fighters when the people they freed went "fuck your tribes we wish to serve the one true God even as free people".

Then again it's entirely possible that it was all  and I'm just giving them way too much credit than they deserve and create grimdark there where  meant to be none.

[lallara zhuul]

You know those liberal holders, what a bunch of troublemakers. *shakes a fist*

This is one of the things that has been bugging me for quite some time.

To me as a Finn a liberal means something, to someone from different country and cultural heritage a liberal means something completely different. Even talking to another Finn that would have gone to the same school and had the same education as me, the meaning would be different.

So...

To me a liberal Holder in the Empire means a few things.
- slaves are motivated by the carrot, not by the rod, to follow the Scriptures.
- the Scriptures and the Traditions do not determine every aspect of life.
- there can be limited contact with the other cultures.

The carrot is something subtle, like being able to name your children.
Not freedom in a generation if you follow the rules.

A liberal Holder by no means...
- smokes French cigarettes and sports a dashing moustache.
- fucks everything that moves.
- thinks that slaves are people.

[Rodj Blake]

Don't worry, folks.

The reason that there has been no new PF for over a year is because ISD are all hard at work fixing the inconsistencies.

When they are finshed, we will all live in the sunny uplands of a brighter tomorrow and problems with the PF will be a thing of the past.

Or, if you prefer...   

[Merdaneth]

So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.

Merdaneth is confused...

A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.

The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).

[Vincent Pryce]

So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.

Merdaneth is confused...

A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.

The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).

Say my dad is 1st generation slave, that makes me 2nd generation when I have kids they will be the 3rd generation their kids will be 4th and so on. So. ZombieQueen says, 3rd and older are free to go, that's gonna leave my grand kids still in captivity. As I understand generations 1 to 3 are the older generations and the 4th one the younger.

Maybe I'm looking this from a more VtM kind of angle.

[Lyn Farel]

<snip>
 But it is also to compensate the fact that a lot of slaves are very probably getting integrated in the amarr society, some of them being freed, married to amarr citizens, etc. <snip>

You.

I now see why you understood that. No, I meant, "some of them being freed, then sometimes married to amarr citizens". So, no, I did not say that, even if it was possible to understand it as you did, mea culpa.

A liberal Holder by no means...
- smokes French cigarettes and sports a dashing moustache.
- fucks everything that moves.
- thinks that slaves are people.

You have sources for that ?

The only I know of :

Liberal Holders

Holders, the major landholding class in Amarr society, are generally conservative traditionalists. A few, however, have elected to break ranks with their hidebound and power-hungry peers, instead supporting the modernization of their society's religion and substantial economic reform. Their champion is Catiz Tash-Murkon, the Udorian Royal Heir.

That could mean anything, as much like what you say, and as much like what other people say (for example liberals being very liberal by amarrian standards, considering their slaves as people, etc etc). I personnaly believe liberal amarrians are both, with a wide scale of grey in between.

True Amarrians – direct descendants of an ethnic group that conquered all the civilizations of its home world – are proud and supercilious, with a great sense of tradition and ancestry. They are considered arrogant and tyrannical by most others. The Empire's defeat at the hands of the mysterious Jovians, and the Minmatar uprising that followed, left an indelible mark on Amarrian culture. This double failure, a turning point in their history, has shaped an entire generation of policy and philosophy among the imperial elite.

So, again, it can be understood in many different ways and I do not see at all how your personnal view has to be the only solid one (I am not reporting you for urdoingitwrong, but its borderline considering how you stated it).

Thus, unless you have clear sources stating that slaves are not considered as people by liberal holders, and even more, by all of them, I do not see why stating that this is the case. And I am only talking about the "slave are people" point, for that smoking french cigarettes and bearing a mustache, and fucking everything that moves, is just ludicrous.

So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.

Merdaneth is confused...

A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.

The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).

If higher the generation number then older the generation (meaning generation 1 is younger than generation 2) as you say, then it will automatically be the first one to be more numerous, because by the very law of nature, unless their demographics are dropping, newer generations are always more numerous. Percentage wise, the 9th would be very small in comparison to the second one, and even more compared to the first one. In the calculations I made above (for a 4 children per couple), it was 150B of slaves in generation 1, and around 40B in generation 2.

If lower the generation number then older the generation (like Vince said), then its damn weird if we think to the results : with all the generations above 9 freed, firstly that would mean that all the younger generations have been freed, and thats quite a lot of generations (9 to 30++). Secondly, considering that newest generations are exponentially the more numerous, that means basically that all slaves have been freed... And well, thats what ? 20 generations ? How the hell people from the 20th generation still live ?

tl;dr : If the Empress released all the newest generations, then its the majority of the slaves. If the Empress released all the oldest generations, then its a minority.